John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
29.12.2000

Well Kii yaa tuk, with a little luck the Makah should be able to resume whaling next year in time so they too can enjoy their *traditional* food for the holidays just like every other person in North America has the right to do .....

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
22.12.2000

Just wanted to extend to all our wishes that you have a happy holiday season. Wish I could have some whale meat alongside the turkey.

Kii yaa tuk

walter perry
51 stag trail Buena Vista, VA
22.12.2000

I have never hunted whales. But, to deny the right of coastal communities their right would go against everything that I enjoy about hunting. I don't believe that any whaler hates whales. In fact I believe that it is quite the opposite. Just has I hunt the Moose, Elk, and Deer with utmost confiction and dedication, I have a great admiration and respect for these animals. I have studied the arguments of animals rights and the analytic reasons refuting these rights. While I agree with the refuters of animal rights and side with the wildlife managers, I main reason as to why I hunt is that I enjoy it. I hope that they whalers enjoy it also. It would truly be a drag if whaling was a dreadful task that wasn't looked forward to whatsoever. After a hunt I always feel a reverance for the animal that I killed to put meat in the freezer. I wish more people would actually have to see the sacrifice that resides at burgerjoints,kentucky frieds and other restaurants. Keepfighting

Anders Jelmert (Cassanders)
anders.jelmert@imr.no
13.12.2000

RE: the size and content of the guestbook.

I have earlier discussed the issue with HNA, and would use this oportunity to elaborate on the suggestion by Gunnar R. Øie. It is of course crucial to allow all critiacal voices to be heard as long as they stay on topic. Wouldn't it be better to have a dedicated discussion forum at the HNA web-page, but separated from the guestbook?

Cassanders In Cod we trust

El Brazo Onofre
el_brazo_onofre@yahoo.com
11.12.2000

Hola, Senor Phil. A certain Senor Clark states that you yourself were involved in the "sabotage" of the Sirenian, which consisted of breaking some gauge glass and cutting a few wires, not real "sabotage," but the appearance of "sabotage," to support SS's pleas for funds which were running low... This is the real reason why no formal police report was filed - had SS done so, the cops would have figured out what had happened in a hot second, and you guys would have been up to your asses in alligators.

A full brief on this faked sabotage and your part in it is being prepared for Lake Union Drydock. Say "hasta la vista" to your job, and hello to probable prosecution. Better hide your guns.

El Brazo Onofre

SEAWOLF seawolf100@webtv.net 09.12.2000

No Kiiyatuk I was not there when the Sirenian was sabotaged, I just simply took the report the next morning. But I can tell you this, a Seattle Conservation Corps truck was seen leaving the area the night the ship was damaged. I know this because one of the other guards identfied the vehicle. Next night the truck was stupid enough to return, so I grabbed the plate number off it and gave it over to police. The guard who saw a person leaving and getting into the truck ID'd the truck as the same one he saw. The sabotage of the Sirenian was not faked because I saw the damage myself next morning as well as did the police.

A month later I ran 5 of you indians out of the shipyard. It is my opinion you guys were coming in to damage the ship somemore. Police know you guys are a threat.

Fact is you guys did a piss poor job of sabotaging the ship. It's doing just fine.

Gunnar René Øie
gunnar.r@frisurf.no
11.12.2000

The guestbook is a pretty big download, so some moderation is perhaps needed. It's all right that claims of being dead and other insanity, movie quotes and long document postings, even when I post them myself, are removed. It seems to me that perhaps it's time to make a new split in the guestbook and start a'fresh, and perhaps removing less? Negative postings should not be discriminated, unless they swamp the whole thing down.

Tiegen
Tiegen2@aol.com
11.12.2000

I AM doing something about repairing damage done to the environment and to the creatures living on our planet. I AM doing everything that I can to make the oceans more hospitable for the creatures that inhabit them. Just what have you EVER done Howler except moan and groan about yourself and your own agenda? About your fancy clothes and your superiority over the pee-ons that you have to step over every day? Strike three? I don't think so! You may be gone but not forgotten. Have no doubt.

GhostofJW
JW@RioBravo.com
10.12.2000

Are the heavy handed censors of High North on vacation or just taking the weekend off? I'm seeing very little written here about whales or whaling, but no slicing and dicing being done. Could it be that High North only allows those bloodthirsty whale killer supporters free access to this board and not those against the killing of these magnificent beasts? Is the trick to talk bad about Paul Watson or Jim to secure your post on here? This says volumes about the integrity of High North. Read fast, cause as soon as "they" see this, it's off to to the landfill with this opposing opinion. Got no blood on my hands, so I can't stay long.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
09.12.2000

Phil Course

This gets better everytime you post. From what you have stated here you give the inferance that you are a security guard at the Lake Union Drydock where the vessel was moored. Now Phil, we all know your dedication and devotion to the SS, so any report you "may" have tried to take is surely not one you would think would be free of bias do you? Surely you and Watson would have your little "story" worked out such as you are here. (BTW, since when did you start expressing yourself as you did here and posting from another IP?)

John is right. There were "no" police reports filed. Where can I find a public record of your report you claim to have filed?

But that being as it is, what really stands out here in your current version is where you said "A month later I ran 5 of you indians out of the shipyard. "

Phil, this is racial discrimination and harrassment pure and simple. To run people out of the shipyard because they are Indian is exactly what racism of racial profiling is which in and of itself is a civil rights violation, which you have admitted here to doing.

You see Phil Course, this is just one more incident all along in this that you and your racist friends in the ARAs (including Watson) have taken every chance you can to attack Indian People. Whether it is Watson claiming to have been given a the status of a Chief (by being awarded a full eagle feather war bonnet) that no one even remembers or by what you have just said right here about chasing Indians away from the Lake Union DryDock for no other reason than that they were Indian is exactly why you and your friends are the hate group you are becoming known to be.

Keep posting Phil. This gets better all the time. And while you are trying to think of what to say next why don't you get your god Paul to decide whether or not he will sell the Sirenian for one dollar to the Galapagos National Park. And you might ask your friend Frank Trinkle to come post why he thinks his version of what he now alludes to a "military" operation is not at all what the External Relations Department of the GNP says about the role of the SS. This is getting very interesting to say the least.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
09.12.2000

No Kiiyatuk I was not there when the Sirenian was sabotaged, I just simply took the report the next morning. But I can tell you this, a Seattle Conservation Corps truck was seen leaving the area the night the ship was damaged. I know this because one of the other guards identfied the vehicle. Next night the truck was stupid enough to return, so I grabbed the plate number off it and gave it over to police. The guard who saw a person leaving and getting into the truck ID'd the truck as the same one he saw. The sabotage of the Sirenian was not faked because I saw the damage myself next morning as well as did the police.

A month later I ran 5 of you indians out of the shipyard. It is my opinion you guys were coming in to damage the ship somemore. Police know you guys are a threat.

Fact is you guys did a piss poor job of sabotaging the ship. It's doing just fine.

Tiffany Ng
Emmase20003@Yahoo.com
08.12.2000

I found you website so brilliant and helpful too!!

I had to do a Project about whales in school and your website was FANTASTIC,MAGNIFICENT!!!

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
08.12.2000

Paul Watson---

It just occured to me that you have a great opportunity to clearly establish your commitment to the Galapagos National Park.

You stated last year that you sold the Clevland Amory to Lisa Distefano for one dollar. Now, given that Ecuador is a country recovering from centuries of exploitation of foreign governments and corporations, why not sell the Sirenian to the Galapagos National Park for one dollar also?

It would seem if you can use a United States non-profit to solicit donations to buy a ship you later sell to your SS salaried wife's corporation for one dollar, that you could do the same for the Galapagos. It is clear from the email I received from the GNP that it is a patrol vessel they are in dire need of. So what do you think about this idea?

It is only right if you state your campaign is not about you making money that you will provide at least an "equal" business transaction for the GNP that you did for Lisa Distefano's corporation. I will donate the dollar to the GNP and will hand deliver it to your office within 24 hours to receive the transfer documents for the Sirenian on behalf of the Galapagos National Park. What do you say?

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
08.12.2000

Frank Trinkle:

Your response was not at all unexpected. I think what was not expected, again on your part, is that I "did" verify my information prior to releasing. I realize this is something "new" to an organization headed by Paul Watson who openly states that if you don't know the answer to a question to just make it up. It seems this "debate" is not fair in the sense that if truth is what is the topic you have lost hands down already.

Do I have a problem with the SS? Make no mistake about this Frank Trinkle. Your organization is one of the most absolute trashy, despicable, racist, and totally worthless organizations I have had to deal with in my life. Your operations simply cannot exist without fabrication of lies, exploitations of other people, and creating as much hate and ill will among people that I have ever had the disgusting displeasure of having to confront.

Paul Watson' lies date back to 1973 claiming to be a Canadian Indian from a tribe whose name is too complicated to spell and since that time his lies (and by extension that of the SS) are such that they are impossible to keep track of.

Do the oceans need protected? Of course they do. But what none of us need, the oceans included, is a group called the SS who exploits even the very causes you seek to assist in by your endless lies, alleged sabatoge of your own ship, alleged money laundering, suspected dumping oil in the oceans, and pure fraud which you surely give every indication of having committed.

Frank, there are those of us who are on to your lies and the way your actions taint every legitimate "environmental" group. You can rest assured Frank that every time you release a "campaign" that it will be investigated, verified, and if there is even an "inkling" of misinformation this will be reported and made known so that your supporters will finally be able to see you as you are.

Kii yaa tuk

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
08.12.2000

So what you are saying then is the Galapagos National Park Service are liars?? I'm sure they will be very happy to hear that (and trust me they will)

For the record this is from the Galapagos National Park Service (anyone who wants to get a copy to verify can contact me or Keith):

From: Desirée Cruz To: kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net Cc: Director PNG Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 7:36 AM Subject: Sea Shepherd's Sirenian

Dear Sir,

We appreciate your concern. The Galapagos National Park Service is an Ecuadorian governmental institution in charge of the management, administration and control of the Galapagos National Park and the Galapagos Marine Reserve. One of our main responsabilities is to make sure that Ecuadorian legislation is complied. The Galapagos Special Law (issued March 1998) forbids industrial fishing within the protected waters of the Marine Reserve. Often, large fishing boats from mainland Ecuador, Costa Rica, Spain, Korea, Japan, fish within these waters catching whale sharks, other species of shark, sea turtles, sea lions, dolphins, etc.

Ecuador is a Third World country going through one of the worst economic crisis of its history. The Park only owns one fast speed boat to patrol 140,000 sq km of Marine Reserve (the second largest in the world), and that is not enough, indeed. We have made a contract with Sea Shepherd Foundation by means of which they loan us one of their boats. However, the crew will not be from Sea Shepherd Foundation, but Ecuadorian, all of them working for the Park Service as park rangers.

Moreover, the Galapagos National Park Service has never been involved in destructive or violent acts. We are often the target of these. One of our duties is to protect our natural resources -both marine and terrestrial. If we see somebody doing something illegal (from picking rocks from non-designated areas to fishing forbidden species) we have to bring them to the authorities (being these, the Police or the Navy).

Sea Shepherd will not be exercising power in Ecuadorian waters. The ship is a loan, under complete responsibility of the Galapagos National Park, and its arrival to Ecuadorian waters is been legally completed under the legislation of the Republic of Ecuador.

Sincerely,

Desiree Cruz External Relations Officer Galapagos National Park

Frank Trinkle
ft@elfweb.com
08.12.2000

Once again, Kii Yaa Tuk has no clue....

Your allegations that we are only loaning the Sirenian to the Ecuadorians without crew is totally incorrect.

The Sirenian will be crewed by BOTH Sea Shepherd personnel and Ecuadorian military personnel. The contract with the Ecuadorian government places the Sirenian as a loan on paper for legal purposes. The ship will remain under our control.

What is more disturbing is the fact that you find fault with this mission at all. The purpose of Sirenian Surprise is to halt the poaching of fish, sharks, and turtles in an area where poachers have operatied unabated to the detriment of the species that are unique to the region. Are you so disturbed that you would rather these animals are driven to extinction than support a organization that you personally don't like?

It is quite apparent that you take the stand that ANYTHING that Sea Shepherd does has some kind of ulterior motive, and that is simply ridiculous. I remind you once again, AS YOU WELL KNOW, that SSCS has operated for nearly 25-years on absolutely miniscule budgets, and we've done our work well. Greenpeace, IFAW, WWF, and others take in as much as 200 times the donations we do, yet we have proven ourselves much more effective. The idea that we do what we do for money is a really stupid assumption.

Your accusations, allegations, and ignorant rhetoric over the last couple of years are totally unfounded, and based in a hatred of our organization simply on the merits of a single issue --- Makah Whaling. Why don't you keep it there. Your prattle would be more objective than your ignorance on other issues.

Frank

Gunnar René Øie
gunnar.r@frisurf.no
07.12.2000

Thank you for your email Venke!

It's nice to see that it's possible to be opposed to whaling without supporting the SSCS. It's also possible to support whaling without supporting Steinar Bastesen, but frankly he appeals more to me than Paul Watson. However, I will not automatically aggree with every statement Steinar makes without hearing it first.

I don't know ANY whalers Venke. I can't tell you anything intelligent about this matter that I haven't got through the media and the argumentation from both sides and reading books about it. (I have spent some time on www.seashepherd.org and www.greenpeace.org too). There could be that the whalers are lying in our faces, that they have the media in their pockets, or that we are being run by aliens (perhaps the aliens in this world are us? That's what many people feel). The debate is just heated. I guess it has to be that way when SOME of the anti-whaling side are breaking new ground in animal rights. If you compare the struggle for the whales with the struggle to free the slaves or the US independence I guess the Sea Shepherd have shown a lot of restraint.

I don't want a situation where whales are beeing exterminated again. I also recognize that maybe some of the whaling supporters may not be the best people in the world.

I want to do good to this world and keep it alive until it is consumed by Sol.

I would also like to take this opportunity to appologize for my off-topic posts the 4.th of december. (That whole date was deleted from the guestbook).

James
redball46@aol.com
07.12.2000

http://www.seattleinsider.com/community/forums/environment.html

Bill Wallace
billwall@dellnet.com
05.12.2000

I love your website, I'll be faxing in my application for membership 12/05/00. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
03.12.2000

Phil Course, aka Seawolf100

It is odd you bring up your involvement in the sabatoge of the SS ship at the Lake Union Drydock---which is where you are employed.

There are usually two factors looked at--motive and opportunity. The motive part is clear on the part of Paul Watson wanting you to do that. First of all, it kept his donations coming in, secondly it got him more media attention, which he thrives on even if it is bad. But I lean towards thinking it was his addiction to committing crimes and fraud which motivated his wanting you to sabatoge his own vessel. Always did seem odd there were no police reports.

Secondly, opportunity. You work there, you are a dedicated, blind follower who has continued to cc Paul Watson with some of the most bizarre emails I have received. And no doubt you would have been ditched by him for the embarrassments you cause but there had to be some reason why he didn't. Which of course is that you had the goods on his involvement so he couldn't. How am I doing so far?

But back to opportunity. Right here you stated you were at the scene when it happened. Good going Phil Course.

Kii yaa tuk

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
02.12.2000

Once again Paul Watson proves his credibility factor is zero. I don't know if anyone has been following the SS and their latest campaign involving the Galapagos National Park, where Watson et al claims a "joint enforcement" agreement was made and "joint patrols" will be conducted, etc etc etc

Turns out that the Sirenian is only a "loan" to the GNP and will not even be crewed by any SS people at all. There is no authority, or responsibility whatsoever to the SS other than the agreement to "loan" a crewless ship. Once again Watson has found an easy way to scam donations, always playing the superhero against superevil and claiming roles and credit for things he has no involvement in at all.

Watson, you are a discredit to any and all legitimate environmental groups. You do just as much damage to the environment because of your lies, frauds, and bogus campaigns as any other , including corporations which exploit Third World resources. You exploit indigenous Peoples in a totally different way, but no less destructive to the environment.

When will you get a grip on your ego and end all these charades you pull and actually for once try and do something without all the gimicks, lies, and fraud?

Adam cartlidge
halloe
01.12.2000

I think this site is verey good

Gunnar René Øie
gunnar.r@frisurf.no
30.11.2000

Venke. I won't mock you for the spelling in your last sentence ( I make many mistakes myself). I just fail to see what propaganda you're talking about. Shure, Paulie boy gets a rougher ride in the Norwegian media than in many other parts in the world (I remember when that weird campaign to "save his life" got good press on Entertainment Tonight). Also, for various reasons, Norwegian law enforcement, the marine rescue service and many scientists don't hold him in as high a regard as many anti-whaling activists will do.

The media has portrayed Paulie boy and Steinar Bastesen (former leader of the Norwegian small whales catchers union) both as a kind of clowns. When Steinar sues the (supposedly government controlled) state television for letting Paul say that Steinar called him and said he would "blow your fucking head off" on prime time TV, it doesn't help the debate a lot. Everybody should know that Paul Watson won't check twice if the person who called really was Steinar, if there was a call at all. Steinar should really be happy that some journalists let Paul Watson speak to the Norwegian people, as Paul only needs his 30 minutes of fame to show what a piece of work he really is.

The journalist (Petter Nome) thought the series of programmes portrayed various heroes. He said so when he in retrospect understood that the programme where the Ku Kux Klan got the same kind of coverage as Sea Shepherd might have been inappropriate because they just got to talk without any opposition. (It was a kind of horizon-expanding travel programme, not hard facts journalism.) I don't know if he thought Paul Watson was a hero, but at least Grand Admiral Paul is someone special with a band of special people well worth visiting if you're in the neighbourhood;-) I guess Steinar would like some investigative journalism instead of just a visit to the SSCS HQ.

There has been some funding and distribution by the state television of an Icelandic "hostile" documentary. It's been a long time since i saw it. It dug up a lot of "filth" on Greenpeace, its finances, ties to malignant groups etc. Was this propaganda?

How about when those "green peas" cut the line to the whale while watched by the veterinarian and where charged with prolonging the suffering of an animal. Was the report about that propaganda as well? (Too bad the evidence was too weak, it would have made the ultimate irony trial.)

To the SSCS:

Voilence is dangerous, not only to yor self. You may kill people inadvertently with your voilence. Have you ever heard about a sinking of a ship where people have died by accident? You may want to ask Greenpeace in New Zealand if they recall anything like that happening. (If you still speak to those people who stick to just being stupid and ignorant instead of being as "daring" as your sorry self). If you hurt or kill any HUMAN BEING the police will be at your door with arrest- and searchwarrants, and, if they take your threaths seriously, with sub-machineguns and snipers on standby. (I heard some of your guys had SEAL training, was that the Navy SEALs or where they trained at Seaworld?) Then again, you'll just rally gullible celebrities and run off to some country without an extradition aggreement if that happens. Let's hope it doesn't, OK?

Of course, it's hard not to resort to voilence when you're a postmodern man fighting the apparently "archaic" and "fallocentric" logocentrism of western culture.

Before the nation of whales speaks through someone else than you I'm afraid you won't get wide support for anything else than ensuring whale populations don't die out and that whales are not made to suffer more than other animals that are hunted.

Mads Friis
h2so4@hcl.dk
30.11.2000

I first visited this page, after encountering Mr. Watson in the Danish news during the so-called grind stop campaign - which apparently didn’t stop anything, except reason maybe. After the roars of laughter over this pompous mega-ego had decreased, I began wondering what kind of people would give any attention to such an obvious spoof, or indeed finance and support it. It has been interesting to follow the debate, or rather the ongoing war between pro-whalers and contra-ditto, and reading has caused much hilarity but also concern. After the page has been censored, the more rancid and crazy inputs have disappeared, and a very peculiar specie - the Seawolf - seems to have become extinct, which might not be so bad. Anyway nothing has influenced my lack of interest in the subject of whaling, apart from my general opinion that no creature should be killed without good reason. On the other hand I’ve gained much insight in the minds of individuals who feel obliged to involve themselves in animal loving and other forms of doing good. You can surf endlessly after the homepage called ‘Protect the Herring’ or ‘Save the Anchovy’ and you can’t help wondering why. Why is it only worthwhile to be engaged in protecting animals which are big, beautiful, cute or furry? Who cares about small, smelly, stupid and numerous creatures – do they lead ever so miserable lives? Nobody! Much havoc has been caused by misunderstood doing good through the years. I see a strong parallel to a phenomenon that has recently ravaged this country. Denmark has the worlds largest production of mink for the making of fur coats. There is a great number of large mink farms scattered around the land. Naturally the animals are kept in little cages, and must be expected not to lead a very interesting life. All right - tough luck for the mink. However it’s pretty obvious that a mink which is suffering and generally miserable does not grow a very nice fur. So now some do-gooders gather and decide to call themselves ‘The Liberation Front of the Animals’ (!) and rummage around in the dark of night, opening the mink cages, thus freeing the poor creatures by the thousands. What happens then do you think? Well for one thing, the mink is no natural inhabitant of this country, so if you have just a fraction of thought and imagination, you would know what a catastrophe this action would cause, both for the mink and indeed for the rest of the fauna. The little predators - which have lived in captivity for generations - will ravage around before they suffer a miserable death by starvation. The lucky ones might be killed by cars. So much for Liberating the Animals….. It is hard not to see - what is here known as - the BMW-factor. Right next to the - now empty - mink farm, lies maybe a chicken factory or an egg factory or a pork factory, places which make Neuengamme seem like Paradise. But who cares about that, everyone can afford a chicken, an egg or a slice of bacon – only fat, rich ladies wear fur coats…….. Well a sad story, but the damage is done, and maybe the Animal Liberators have grown a little wiser, they certainty couldn’t get any more stupid. To call them stupid would be an insult to stupid people (Fish called Wanda. Also about animal loving which runs amuck). So, to spin a yarn to all this, let there be animals - let us love and protect them, but let there also be reason.

Venke Larsen
v_enke@hotmail.com
30.11.2000

I`m sadly ashamed to be a norwegian. Again and again we show the world that we are incabable to se longer than our own noses. We think that we are the only nation with whaling traditions, which clealy isen`t true. We think we knows what is right for the world, again we are sadly mistaken. The only thing I`m proud of is that I am a member of the winning team. I support Greenpeace, and that makes me a little bit better than the oh so sadly mistaken whalers of Norway. I thank God that even in this country I manage to se the truth even if it`s hidden under tonns og propaganda.

Keith Larocque
larocqeP@nrtco.net
29.11.2000

I think this web sit is the best ive sean yeat

Jørn E. Gåsvær
joern.gaasvaer@c2i.net
23.11.2000

I congratulate the HNA with a very informative website and a very thorough work, which all of us people up here in northern Norway appriciate strongly. Greetings from Melbu!

Gunnar Rene Øie
gunnar.r@frisurf.no
23.11.2000

"I'm a 12 year old girld and I love whales, Please save them! Whalers are bad."

"I'm a whaler and I love drinking whale blood. Let's shoot the whales until they're extinct! HAHAHAHAH!"

It's seems strange to me that anybody wants to post messages like these. These kinds of messages often appear in the guestbooks of animal rights groops. Are they real or what? How do you answer posts like those anyway?

Gunnar Rene Øie
gunnar.r@frisurf.no
23.11.2000

I'm sitting at the university reading this document: http://www.seashepherd.org/rms/index.html (it's quite lengthy)

I find it quite funny how the SSCS describes Japan's efforts to "buy" Carribian nations into the IWC, knowing which nations where members allready. It may seem strange that Sweeden and Germany are members, but Austria and Switzerland? Small island states have a natural place in the commision. I suspect Admiral Paul will try to get Mongolia, Nepal, Afghanistan, Burundi and Rwanda into the commision as well?

You should scroll down to the last couple of paragraphs first (from "To change a mind-set") , because everything that's written above it is just nonsense once you've read the end. Why do the SSCS even care to counter the scientific "facts" if these "facts" should be disregarded in the end?

The only parts of the conservation argument that actually appeal to me is the talk about how the whalers won't regulate themselves and the smuggling of illegal whale meat. I think this is a good topic for debate. Cheating bastards are everywhere, it's especially easy to cheat without monitoring, and how about when poor countries want to start whaling and the multinational companies enter the field?

Is there such a big market for whale meat that this will be a problem?

Will the IWC have any authority on whaling after straying so far from the convention on which it is based and making decisions that contradict everything but the will of animal rights groups in member countries?

I think a controlled hunt and trade is doable, if the measures are enforced properly. Weakening the international multilatteral bodies that are needed to do this helps the conservationists' arguments today, but will be bad for whale populations when hunting resumes.

The only reason I care about and support whaling is because of the downright evil doings of the extremist activists. (Blame the propaganda from the big, bad, Christian Moslem fundamentalist nazi Jewish communist infidel gay CIA redneck yankee Norwegian government if you wish |-) Still, I won't threaten you. I won't support sinking your ships. Not JUST because I'm a coward ( oh, yes, I'm a coward) but because I refuse to take part in further polarising the debate. (However, chaining myself to Paul Watsons front door suddenly appeals to me ;-)

Well, that was quite a ramble. Hope it ends up in the guestbokk, Greepeace won't let me post to their's and doesn't answer their email either. The only oppostion they show is the angry guys who write threats and swear against them and say "I like drinking whale blood and want to kill all the whales". Go figure.

john fain
JFain@stevenspass.net
17.11.2000

well, for a "passed along" version of my comments, not tooo far off. My main point is that while the envirnmentalist "make war" on all tribes, because they disagree with one tribe on one issue, the coyote is in the hen house. the coalition of tribes and enviornmental groups was too powerful for it's political enemys to cope with. so my suspicion is that this feud has been "helped along" by those that wish good things for neither group. Never herd racist comments from enviornmental activists before the whale issue. they used to be pretty well informed about tribal cultures and the difference between coastal tribes and say, desert dwelling zuni. Now it is somehow revert to the 18 hundred something timeline when the dispute with one tribe somehow made all tribes evil. Come to think of it, before this issue i never heard greenpeace or any other enviornmental activist using racial slurs, threats of violence or the like against anybody. what the devil is going on here? nobody is behaving with their customary balence or clear thought. john fain

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
15.11.2000

Answers for the OW Movie. Shooting starts sometime in January but you got to remember, the movie people run on their own schedule.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
13.11.2000

Doreen, it is with sadness that i have to tell you that we live in a world where men choose to do this out of sport and profit rather than necessity. With the exception of a very few peoples on earth, the killing of wild animals, particularily whales and dolphins is not necessary for survival.

For those of us who want a kinder world for our loved ones, this remains one of the most distressing facts of life.

I wish there was a way to resolve this cruelty in the mind of an adolescent, but please rest assured that there are many caring people who want to end the unnecessary killing of those splinded animals.

DOREEN Thomas
Mick22295@aol.com
12.11.2000

Hello!I´m an 14-years old girl and i was looking for something i could take for my english homework we have to make a poster about whaling and i should look for pictures!I was shocked,really!The pictures are terrible and i was nearly began to cry!These poor animals!!!!!!I think it it really god to help whales because they are very beautyful animals I think!Go on like this I think it´s great!I´m sorry about my Writting-mistakes,I´m sorry but i´ve given my best,but remember I am only a 14-years-old-german-girl!!OK bye and do anything for the whales!!

David
david@hotmail.com
09.11.2000

And, if we calculate the enormous energy costs of operating boats, motors aircraft, and the transportation of "experts", we will find a rather startling thing: the environmental costs of "saving" two dolphins who have chosen a river over the sea far outweigh the desired end...at what point do the social and environmental consequences of this narrow, speciesist ideology enter into the minds of those who cannot see the whole, enamoured as they are by the part? Speedboats on the river, spewing fuel, aircraft in the sky burning oil: but hey, as long as we're trying to save a dolphin....Speedboats on the sea, attempting to swamp a cedar canoe, campaigns of terror directed at women and children, bomb threats phoned to schools, and a people demeaned and ridiculed...but hey, we're trying to save a whale here!...Examples such as these, bradley, illustrate the heights of human folly, and ecological ignorance, and in this way, highlight the very root of our current ecological crisis. Cetaephiliacs, those who place their love of cetaceans above all other considerations, are by definition extremist. The end is always seen to outweigh the means, and this, my friend, is precisely the sort of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. In applauding it's continued expression, you participate directly in the degradation of the planetary environs. in ways you clearly do not comprehend.

David Reynolds
goku14000@yahoo.com
09.11.2000

Thank you but I was looking for animal rights for and against.

Garfield
sure_fiser@online.no
06.11.2000

this page is a very boring page....

Wolfgang Mercedes
redball46@aol.com
30.10.2000

Whaling is an archiac practice. The one and only reason that it continues is because it satiates a primitive mind set.

We do not need to eat whales.

For further answers go to the CERTAIN website. They are against whaling, and have all the answers to everything.

Angelique
Spongeypoo@hotmail.com
28.10.2000

I have been reading though the articles about the whaling and i am discusted on what i have been reading it would be good to see something more done about the whaling and prehaps even stop!I have an article here which says there are only 1260 blue whale and i'm sure every day 10 of those whale would die some why or another. I dont belive the whales should be used to food the over crowded countries i think the over crowded countries should be controled like we control the animals and if there are to many we kill them thats what should happen to us!!!!!!!!!!!

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
26.10.2000

Guess it is just another one for the growing list of "Watson's Lies"? He said he would make another appearance on this guest book in October so I presume he will be around to answer about his movie. He may have had to cash in on his movie money to pay his fine to the Faroe Islands? Kinda suprised he didn't sell another ship for a dollar to make a small fortune off of like he claims he did with the Cleveland Amory.

According to the SS website they are now in the boat rental business. Go figure.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.10.2000

Hey what hapened to the Ocean Warrior movie site???

Could it be that it folded and your hero Watson took off with everyone's money?? Possibly to retire on?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
18.10.2000

Did I see somewhere that "Ocean Warrior" is now being touted as a documentary? When did it get demoted from a "big budget movie?"

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
18.10.2000

Furtaker, i live in the real world.

I spend many days and nights alone on the Pacific each year. I swim with my camera at the most desolate reaches off the California coast. Forgive me for this brazzen statement, but i know the sea like few men on earth, including indigenous hunters. I have an intimate relationship with the sea that the predatory mind simply can't understand. I am not there to turn a profit. I have traveled some 65,000 miles of open sea in a small skiff and i have never derived a cent of income from it. I take a fish for food now and then. That is the truth that i make for myself, pure, and simple.

One thing that i know about hunting and killing wild animals is that it is not necessary in this day and age (except for the rare indigenous man who truly hunts for subsistance). The fact that it is unnecessary, changes the character of what was once a noble pursuit. Men no longer kill out of necessity, they do it for profit. Two hundred years ago, i may have been a noble hunter, but the world has changed. I view killing wild animals as a weakness. Bold men don't convert wild animals into personal income, that is my opinion.

What you may not understand is that when a man kills for profit, it comes flooding back to him and will haunt him in his soul. I hope that you find your heart before you have that moment.

May you be safe until then.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
18.10.2000

If you pay close attention you will notice that the Ocean Warrior site hasn't been updated since it was put up in July. One interesting thing on the site that I find deliciously ironic is the poll "Should Whaling be banned?"

2/3 of the people say no and only a mere 1/3 said yes. That is what is known in Congress as a "veto proof majority" ....

haven't tasted whale meat
spam@spam.invalid
17.10.2000

The Norwegian whale hunt seems kind of commercial. It's possble to buy whale meat for dinner from most general stores I've been to here in Norway. Admittadely (was that spelled right?) the Norwegian economy does not earn much money from whaling, but the whalers seem to make a living, (though not better than any fisherman.)

The precautionary principle should prevail (though not to a silly extent) when dealing with whale stocks. The coastal whalers don't want pirate whaling operations (do they exist really?). (If you don't call all whaling "pirate whaling" because you think it ought to be illegal or is illegal in the state of Texas.) Ships changing name and state all the time is a genuine problem, involving vanished cargoes, stolen ships, corrupt officials and bad maritime safety. To learn more, visit http://WwW.IMO.Org Ideally these problems should be solved by international cooperation and law enforcement, but paramilltary groups like Sea Shepherd may help in the short term? Maybe NO! One problem (that Greenpeace like to voice) is that the anti-whaling campign could backfire into a hughe popularity for whaling sparking huge competiton and whalers popping up all over the place. In such a hypothetical environment I hope the IWC hasn't made too much of an arse out of it self and that good international regulatory mechanisms are properly enforced. We should not forget why some species of whale were seriously diminished in the first place.

The ISN special documentary on Paul Watson's life now has a website: www.oceanwarrior.com, with storyboards, story outline and all >-)

Furtaker
trapper@charter.net
17.10.2000

To Bradley; Life and death are reality not prose nor poetry. Pretty words have no place in the real world but only in a land of perfected fantasia. It is of no shame to hunt or kill whales or any other creature as long as it is for the procurement of food or clothing. I am a hunter, trapper and a fisherman and I am just as much a part of nature and the natural world as any other being. The shame is there are people who seem to have forgotten that they have descended from hunter-gatherer societies as early man was such. I don't know of any "commercial" whaling being practiced at this time. The Japanese are taking whales for research and the aboriginals are taking them for subsistence. Perhaps Rebecca would care to enlighten us as to what commercial whaling she speaks of?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
17.10.2000

I don't know the details, but I have heard that there have been a number of whales beached on Souther Californian shores severely undernourished recently. Not injured, just unfed.

That would seem to indicate overpopulation to me.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
16.10.2000

I agree with you, Rebecca.

Of all of the animals on earth great and small, it is a shame to all of us that some kill whales.

To know the sea is to love her

To love the sea is to love her children

Protect that which you love

Rebecca
Vamptress31@aol.com
15.10.2000

i think that they should really cut down on commerical whaling.

Cinndra
Cinndra@hotmail.com
04.10.2000

I am a Pro whaler......what exactly was I convicted of? Hurry think of something.....investigate your little heart out...there is NOTHING....so no.....all PRO WHALERS are NOT felons....I don't suppose it ever occured to you that there ARE convicted ARA felons......as for MTH or anyone else you may THINK is a felon....so flipping what! You seem to be the only one that cares.

whalelover
whalelover@hotman.com
29.09.2000

Here's a nice Japanese recipe for whale. Enjoy!

In Osaka, whale meat stew is called "harihari," and it is so called from the crunchy sound "paripari" of mizuna, potherb mustard leaves served with the dish. The dashi soup is made from a dried bonito and kelp base and seasoned stronger than the typical suimono soup. Thinly sliced red whale meat (akami and onomi) is added, with mizuna cut to about 5 centimeters. As whale meat toughens and mizuna loses its texture when both are cooked for a long time, it is better to lightly dip the meat and mizuna in the dashi soup and eat them with grated ginger and shichimi-tougarashi or a ground mixture of red pepper and other aromatic spices. This is a casual meal that fits the busy life style of Osaka people. Mizuna is a winter vegetable often eaten in the Kansai area, and its softness and flavor are enhanced after being exposed to frost. It is easily digested and has many vitamins. Red whale meat has less cholesterol than beef, pork and chicken and contains more protein than beef, making it a highly nutritious food. Osaka used to consume 70% of all whale meat, including koro (subcutaneous fat) and saezuri (tongue), eaten in the country. However, due to the international ban on whale hunting, it has become a delicacy and stocked meat is now being mostly used. It may be a food culture that is fated to disappear in the future.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
26.09.2000

Geez Seadork, just because Watson and half his cohorts have been arrested in multiple countries is no reason to call them criminals .... or is it?

Jennifer Schuetz
jenlittrell85@hotmail.com
26.09.2000

hi...

I wanted to know if you had any information or websires that I could use, on/for whaling. My class and I are doing projects on ecosystems and things that can affect them. So, I decided to do Whaling. Thanks very much!

Yours Truely, Jennifer Schuetz ps: your website is really cool!!!!!!

Myles Kroll
myles_kroll@hotmail.com
26.09.2000

I wrote a letter to the world council of Whalers, and she told me to be here.

So I came here to look for lots of true World Whalers [whaling] to be my new pen pals with me. If you are very interested of doing so, and if you are a true world Whaling Whalers whom knows English, please contact me ASAP. Leave your name, address and email address, and your whaling job you do. OK. I would love to hear from you. OK. bye all from USA. Myles K.

whalelover
whalelover@hotman.com
24.09.2000

Hey everybody! Here's an interesting whaling site! Enjoy!

http://pw1.netcom.com/~pokey647/

Furtaker
trapper@charter.net
22.09.2000

Whales are a renewable resource not unlike any other mammal that is hunted or has been domesticated by man. Man is an integral part of nature and has hunted since the dawn of time when he progressed from being a scavenger and learned to pursue game and to utilize animals as a source of food and clothing. It is man's instinctive nature to hunt. It is the whalers and hunters of game that understand and experience nature to the fullest and who show the highest regard and respect for it.

David Hicks
dhicks@intergate.com
21.09.2000

You describe the beauty present in all things, Bradley: that it is perhaps easier to percieve in certain moments does not privilege those moments to a realm beyond the present; rather, it points to the innate wonder of all things, which we must through humility and proper listening come to understand. The Nuu-chah-nulth know this, of which the Makah are a part. The Chuckchi and Yup'iit know it; in northern Japan, the Ainu whalers listen in this way. Ten millenia of conditioned listening, of strenuous devotion to the humble solitude of which you speak guide their activity. Even as you express the wonder of a moment's perception of this realm, they strive to percieve it daily: without this perception, this awareness you mention, no sacred whale hunt can succeed. I would remind that opposing the world perception and practice of another solely on the basis of what can and cannot be concieved of from your particular place in the balance priveliges the part, to the detriment of the whole. What you experience out there on that sea, Bradley, is but a sliver of an even more wondrous whole: and for many whaling peoples, indigenous to place for millenia, this moment of wonder has become foundation for thought. To diminish their expressions is to do disservice to the very nature of those moments you so passionately describe, and to close yourself to the learned voices that know them well, but see them from a different place.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
21.09.2000

What do the whalers truly know about the sea?

As a man who has spent hundreds of nights alone on the Pacific, i have intimate knowledge of the beauty and splendor of the whale. Many times i have run a hundred miles off the California coast in the middle of the night in thick fog, in a small boat that i built with these hands. I will stop the boat in the blackness and listen. I have heard whales breathe through the darkness of the night on many occasions. One right next to the skiff, then another just up ahead, and another and another. With each exhallation, they reveal the state of their being, sometimes tense with anticipation, sometimes calm as they languish on the surface, a chain of replies tapering off into the distance. Other times one powerful breath followed quickly by a shorter breath. Mother and calf, inseperable. All they want is is continue their timeless journey between the submerged mountain peaks and valleys and in the open waters. They are gentle, sweet creatures of our earth. They are a comfort and joy to hear on a pitch black night.

Is there is single whaler on earth who can tell me he truly knows the sea in this most intimate way? Is there one whaler who can tell me he swims alone at night a hundren miles off the coast? Is there even one who spends many days and nights alone, exposed to the eliments around the clock? Is there a whaler who will shed his fear and abandon the comfort and security and warmth of his home an throw himself out to sea, that he will know it intimately? Who are these men?

I yearn for a day when men become bold enough to find what they seek without having to kill.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
21.09.2000

Azrael, who is Jim Knudtson, Devilfish, Doughboy...I sympathize with your sentiment regarding the health of whale populations: you will be happy to learn that, for the most part, they do not need saving. Certainly, if your interest is in saving the whales, you should shift your focus away from the overabundant eastern pacific gray whale population, so abundant that nature herself has killed a few (So, Jim; shall we accept that mother nature is a whaler too, and set out to do her in? What do you intend to do about the hungry packs of transient killer whales, who hunt outside the law? What about these pirate whalers?) One who truly wishes to save the whales must address these elements: where should the priorities of a whale saver lie? Battling the minimal, sustainable, respectful harvest of a single gray, which is used in it's entirety, or setting out to end the wasteful, despicable, lawless hunt of the orca: entire carcasses are left to rot on the open sea, once this beast has taken the tongue and belly to satiate his luxuriant appetites. Unless of course, you are a "whale-saver" of convenience: blindly opposing what is spoon fed to you by self-interested groups, blissfully ignorant of ecology, and the fundamental contradictions of your perspective. Or perhaps one should acknowledge that saving that which does not require saving often does more harm than good: pesticides were introduced to "save" crops from the tyranny of "pests"...turns out, "pests" are fundamental to soil health, and ultimately the health of the very plants we set forth to "save". Insulated from considerations of nature, and balance, you Jim continue this line of un-ecological thinking, and coddled thought. Your expressed perspective reflects the true heart of the present ecological crisis we all face: in placing one species above all others, remaining willfully ignorant of the delicate balance of life, death, human, non-human and ultimately, the web of all things which suspends us, you are contributing directly to the demise of this fragile planetary ecology in ways you clearly are not ready to comprehend. You wish to save the whales not because they are threatened: not because their populations are in jeopardy: not because you percieve a threat to their place in the balance. Instead, you wish to save them because to you, they are especially special: because, ultimately, you feel they have some spiritual utility to you. You are on a selfish, isolated track: your singular, speciesist prejudice demeans nature's balance, even as it elevates the whale to a place outside of it. Try to move away from focussing on the singular thing, take some time to percieve the relations which suspend all things. It's right in front of you, Jim: every moment of life, every millisecond places you in relation to all things: with each breath you take, something dies, and something different is born. The very fact of your existence refutes the singular, static, speciesist perspective you espouse...at present, you remain a contradiction in terms. Nonetheless, all this is required to resolve this contradiction is available in the present moment: in the hopes that you will realize this, your apology is accepted.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
21.09.2000

Nice try Ghost of JW but I think you miss something, it's at High North's discretion what is irrelevant NOT yours. As Watson is the leading proponent of anti-whaling I think his credibility (Or more accurately LACK of credibility) IS highly relevant but again it's the owners of this guestbooks choice.

And you violated their terms as what is an anonymous post is no a discretionary call but a factual one and yours is definitely an anonymous post ... well except for your IP addy which comes from the same place as Ghost of JW .....

Dan Spomer
wcca@olypen.com
19.09.2000

Hi, whale killers!

Wow.

Just got a package in the mail from someone who was in the top echelon of the Makah tribal leadership not too long ago. To say it is good reading is the ultimate understatement. There's enough here to keep me busy for the next ten years!

Looks like your heroes in the Makah Whaling Commission have been up to a lot more than their little trophy hunt, but hey, you knew that, right?

I wonder what they'll do with all the media attention when I decide to release THESE bombshells.

The neat thing is that I can just wait, and wait, and wait, until the time is JUST right... but I have a feeling the "right" time will be when the next gunboat leaves Neah Bay, and all the networks are camped out here.

I can't wait!

See ya around, Dano

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
18.09.2000

I'll give you some of my thoughts on it Uni Student, but I think this is a good subject to discuss on list instead of off. Actually the first thing that comes to mind is "What pirate whaling?" I don't see any pirate whaling taking place anymore, at least under present international law. I know some will argue that but let's look at the facts. After we do then you will see that because there technically and legally is no pirate whaling taking place anymore, why groups like SSCS HAVE to go after the small indigenous and limited coastal hunts in order to justify their existance .... simply put, if they didn't there would be nothing for them to do and no reason for any continued donations.

Whaling today falls into just a few places by just a handful of countries and indigenous groups. I'll try to cover them all but it is possible I'll miss one.

Norway - Has filed an exemption as allowed via IWC Convention rules and so are not pirate whaling but are doing it legally.

Iceland - No longer a member of the IWC so that treaty no longer applies to them, this too is legal and allowed under the IWC Convention and as there is no other law except for endangered species what they do is also legal and not pirate whaling as defined in international law.

Faroe Islands - although a protectorate of Denmark, Denmark has specifically filed an exemption for the Faroes in the IWC and several other international agreements on whaling and fishing. Not only is it completely legal under international law, interference by SSCS was illegal as evidenced by the arrest of Watson and others by INTERPOL, the international law enforcement agency.

Japan - Even with all the posturing and blustering by the US and other countries Japanese scientific whaling is done as allowed under present IWC rules. You hear the word "loophole" thrown around a lot but until such a time as the loophole is closed, technically under law Japan is operating within the rules and is therefore not illegal under present law and conventions.

Alaskan, Siberian, and other subsistance hunts - These too are allowed under IWC rules and at the last IWC meeting NO complaints were filed even against any of th subsistance hunts INCLUDING the Makah hunt, so all are technically completely within the IWC rules and international law. The only one not covered under IWC is in Canada which is no longer a member of the IWC so any IWC rules no longer apply to them.

The main proof that all these hunts are legal under international law is simply this ... not a single one of the above list has ever been brought before the World Court at the Hague or even a case filed against them mainly because everyone knows, whether they admit to it or not, that no case against any of the afore mentioned has a chance to even be allowed to come before the Hague court much less have any chance of being won.

Many, but not all, whale stocks are still under danger but pirate whaling is not the problem any longer, the current threats to whales, which ironically seem to be more of a concern to the whaling nations than the anti-whaling groups, are pollution, coastal (over)development, chemical runoff from rivers and other source into coastal waters, depletion of food stocks, and in many areas, pleasure and commercial boating. Although not as flashy, high profile and headline grabbing as directly interfering with whaling, these still are the biggest dangers to whales and for the most part aren't being addressed by the very groups who claim to be trying to save the whales, except in rare instances without any real tangible action backing it up.

Uni Student
bcl2@waikato.ac.nz
18.09.2000

Kii Yaa Tuk & Urban

Your both seem to be "up with the play" on all the whaling issues. I hope you can contact me and help me with me assignment.

Bruce (limbrucelim@hotmail.com)

Despite you initial emotional ramblings, you started to present a case using facts. It is a shame that you left when you did as you started to talk about pirare whaling. I hope you can help me.

So, please E-Mail at bcl2@waikato.ac.nz with any info you may have on pirate whaling.

Cheers,

Uni Student

Uni Student
bcl2@waikato.ac.nz
18.09.2000

Hi All,

I am doing an assignment on PIRATE WHALING and I was wondering if some of the people in here could give me some hlp and or direction as to where to look.

I am not interested in any of the Neah Bay affair - just PIRATE WHALING.

Could the following people please contact me and lend their help to my assignment...

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
17.09.2000

Seemed to know what he was talking about?

I can give you 3 extremely obvious and glaring errors right off the top of my head ....

1. He claimed SSCS was only in Neah Bay until fall 1998 but in fact they were there in spring 1999 when the whale was taken ... of course they weren't in Neah Bay at the exact time the whale was taken because they were few miles away nursing hangovers and were caught napping but they were there in Neah Bay for several months in 1999. I think they are just trying to hide their own impotence at stopping the Makah by pretending they weren't there ....

2. He claimed NO activists had ever been convicted of interferring with the hunt but as we all know both Erin Abbot AND Bill Moss were recently convicted of interfering with the hunt and both sentenced to 1 year probation and community service.

3. He claimed the U.S. Whaling Convention Act was amended in 1996 to include subsistance hunting but the fact is it DID NOT happen and subsistance hunting is in NO WAY mentioned in the U.S. Whaling Convention Act just as Mike correctly stated. Don't believe us, go look for yourself, I think we can all agree that Cornell University Law would have the correct up to date information on the US Code http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/unframed/16/ch14.html#PC14

I'm sure I'll be able to come up with even more after we get the entire thing transcribed. And since it is extremely relevant I think this bears repeating, these are Watson's own words and are obviously SSCS policy .....

"If you do not know an answer, a fact, or a statistic, then simply follow the example of an American President and do as Ronald Reagan did -- make it up on the spot and deliver the information confidently and without hesitation."

Paul Watson - Earth Force p. 43

And they will continue to do it as long as there are suckers like you who think a spokesperson from SSCS "seemed to know what he was talking about" ....

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
16.09.2000

Folks, allow me to introduce Phil, aka Seawolf. Phil is a longstanding member (in good standing) with the "Stop Whale Kill" organization. SWK has such notable members as Paul Watson, Frank Trinkle, Andrew Christy, Dan Spomer, Jake Conroy, Josh Harper, Anthony Marr and Jim Robertson (among others). And yet, the SS, ODI, WCCA will deny racist associations and actions. For more information concerning the racist organization SWK please see the CERTAIN website http://www.users.uswest.net/~certainorg/mikeelm.html in which the SWK is more fully disclosed.

Phil, I am shocked that your intent in life to add trash and garbage to guestbooks in order to create such a vile atmosphere that the guestbook host would feel the need to shut the guestbook down due to your vulgarity and total disregard to children's eyes. Dan Spomer already has a guest book like that--but of course you know that already.

You have stated to me repeatedly over the last year that you take your orders from the "higher ups" in SWK and SS and I can only assume that your trash and offensive abuses of the internet are ones which are done with the consent of the SS and SWK.

You are no one's victim Phil but a victim of your own hatred towards people who are different than you or who believe differently than you do. Your hatred has nothing to do with whales. Your associates with SWK and SS have nothing to do with environmental issues or the real issues which threaten the oceans. You are a hate mongering group of people who are being exposed for what you are and that exposure will not end until your hatemongering filth stops.

You have shown by your response that you have no remorse for what you have posted, and in fact, have done so deliberately to achieve a specific result of causing such offensive and abusive posts to cause a guest book from Norway to be closed to prevent your vulgarity, obsence posts, racist entries, and advocation of violence.

If there is one thing I do respect you for it is that you have been forthcoming in taking your directions from your "higher ups" on SWK and the Sea Shepherd.

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
16.09.2000

Saysram

Have you checked out Paul Watsons lies. He is not a full blood Indian nor is his wife Lisa Distefano. He was not at the occupation of Wounded Knee. He admits he lies to the press. Do you really think he doesn't lie to you?

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
16.09.2000

Sanctions on the Japanese Jim? OK I'll talk about that. In the world of multi-national corporations sanctions on nations like Japan don't work and/or are illegal under international trade treaties. Then of course sanctions on the Japanese could put upwards to one million US workers out of a job, do you have ANY idea of how many people are employed by Japanese owned corporations in just the Seattle area alone? Or how many Japanese cars are actually made in the US by US workers? Or how many US auto companies rely on Japanese parts and steel for US cars? Or how many US computer manufacturers rely on Japanese made parts for their computer products?

Given these facts do you REALLY believe that any meaningful trade sanctions are going to happen? Or would they in fact do much more harm than good ..... This isn't the 1970's anymore and using an old idea that worked once but is no longer viable option in a different world economy from then is not a good idea ....

Japanese scientific whaling needs to be stopped but sanctions aren't the way, amending the IWC and putting in some REAL penalties may work, and if this illegal already (And given the wording of the IWC on scientific whaling, I doubt it is) then the US needs to take the case to the International Court at the Hague. Since there is NO mention of that by the US you have to concede that perhaps the Japanese have the higher legal ground here ....

I know you want a "quick fix" for this but there isn't one and anyone who suggests there is, be they the SSCS or the US government, is just jerking your chain for other reasons, be they financial contributions or votes .....

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
16.09.2000

Yeah there was that caller and another anti-Makah caller who tried to push the BS that whales are humans too, something every scientist in the world would argue is 100% wrong, whales are not even in the same biological category as homo sapiens other than being mammals .... Mike set them both straight though and did it in a polite way, even though the one jerk didn't deserve such respect at all.

On the plus side the 3 callers that were pro-Makah were all well spoken and sounded intelligent, instead of just parroting some ARA propaganda crap. Tw o had actually spend some time with the Makah and were quite impressed with them as a people and overall as a culture, the third brought up the very valid issue of aboriginal diet and how important it is for the indigenous people to get back to it. Not much that Christie could say to any of them, so he didn't really try. In fact all Christie could seem to do the entire show was mumble IWC IWC IWC .....

We are in the process of transcribing the entire debate and if possible soundbites or maybe even have the entire program available for download on the CERTAIN website. When it is ready you can be sure that everyone will be notified ......

JIM KNUDTSON
redball46@aol.com
16.09.2000

Dearest trubble,

thankyou so much for responding to my post to JOHN RUSSELL.

And yes, i do find PAUL WATSON'S writings inspiring, and he is a great speaker as well. He is very much in tune to the plight of the oceans, and the beings that live in them...like the majestic whale with the target on their backs.

trubblecity
trubblecity@trubblecity.com
16.09.2000

Jim, You are apparently unfamiliar with the grat Watson's personal writing. The quotes John has posted are from Watson's own book, EarthForce! An Eco Warrior's Manual. Some people here, might find Watsons own words, err, inspiring.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
15.09.2000

Classic Watson Quotes ... or How Many Ways Can You Say "Lie Your Ass Off"?

Earth Force p. 92 (emphasis in original)

"6. Spreading Manure. Give out false information about your intentions and movements. Leave false clues and signals. Lead your opposition to concentrate defense and offense on fronts more desirable for your advantage. When you say that you will be doing one thing, then do another.

Earth Force p. 104

==============

"The nature of the mass media today is such that the truth is irrelevant. What is true and what is right to the general public is what is defined as true and right by the mass media. Ronald Reagan understood that the facts are not relevant. The media reported what he said as fact. Follow-up investigation was 'old news'. A headline comment in Monday's newspaper far outweighs the revelation of inaccuracy revealed in a small box inside the paper on Tuesday or Wednesday."

Earth Force p. 42 ============ "If you do not know an answer, a fact, or a statistic, then simply follow the example of an American President and do as Ronald Reagan did -- make it up on the spot and deliver the information confidently and without hesitation."

Earth Force p. 43

Ronny Reagan and Slade Gorton as Watson's big heroes sure gives a real clue to where his mind really is at ....

JIM KNUDTSON
redball46@aol.com
15.09.2000

First..Adam..uh..oh nevermind. You don't listen anyway.

I am of norwegian ancestry, and i have relatives currently living in Norway, and i want to go on record here and say that i am ashamed and dis-appointed in my ancestral homeland that they feel they need to continue and support whaling.

Adam Sapien
adms@yahoo.com
15.09.2000

Sheena, you're making a lot of noise, but I must say, you are saying precious little in the way of substance. The Faroese hunt goes on, the Makah hunt will continue, Sea Sheperd will get some press, wear out their media welcome, and move on. The reality I perceive is the one which is plain to see:Sea Shepherd is a small, ineffectual organization, with no influence on the level of policy or law (save it's increasingly ridiculous interpretations of international law, interpretations not taken seriously by the law-makers of the world, with good reason), on the far fringe of the animal rights movement; it attracts the shrill, the angry, and exploits them all...indeed, it suckers the occasional one into issuing its press releases, in the place of that person actually thinking on their own: Sheena, you have posted to this book before, a great number of times. Each time, you deliver a boatload of pointless information directly from the Sea Shepherd Society, yell a little, insult a few people, and leave again. Clear and detailed questions are provided to you in an attempt at dialogue, at which point you leave. Sea Shepherd didn't send this info., but you did? Then in you they have a precious commodity, craved by extremist organizations around the world: the shrill zealot, for whom the organization's word is gospel, who mouths the organization's words. Sheena, you're just a puppet; and since you have shown you cannot speak for yourself, I will have to pass on a conversation with you. I'd really like to have a chat with the one who pulls your strings, however...pass that along to your master, would you? Cheers.

Ruth R
ruthruffin@fsmail.net
15.09.2000

Come on you people get a life this is rediculous. You are not trying to understand eacother,just going on and on. Why don't you just e-mail each other and leave this guestbook for what it is meant for. Dont try to give me a smart ass answer,cause I'm not coming back to participate in suh foolish communication. Have a good life.

WhiteRaven
karenrr@tenforward.com
14.09.2000

Hi everyone, This is my first time here. I see that we are dealing with the same idiocy and bad language that we deal with on SI. This could be fun. I feel so sorry for devilfish, he has really lost it. I guess he has spent to much time with you know who and the insanity has rubbed off.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
10.09.2000

5 whales???

I can tell you that that will never happen and in fact the Makah really have no intention of taking that many. They conceded a long time ago that 1 a year is probably the limit bcause of the simple fact that is all the cold storage space they have. They might be able to take 2 a year but no more than that and they have NO immedeate plans to increase their cold storage space.

That is why the FACTS are thus, the Makah by being given 5 whales out of an already existing quota will in fact save 3-5 whales PER YEAR and in fact have saved 9 so far. 9 that would have been taken by the indigenus Russian whalers are now safe, that is something the ARA's don't really want anyone to know because it shoots down 99% of their opposition arguments to the hunt ..... And they sure as hell don't want to debate that FACT and have constantly avoided doing so for nearly 3 years now ......

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
09.09.2000

Paul Watson:

I've been researching your claims that your ex-wife Lisa Distefano is a Cherokee Princess. I can't find her enrolled with any of the bands. You said her grandfather was Cherokee. What was his name and what was his blood quantum. Do you know what clan? It seems that this is another watsonian lie. You can't claim that Indians oppose the hunt when the "Indian" is Lisa Distefano is that "Indian."

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
06.09.2000

Wrong Devil Fish The Makah have the legal, moral, ethical and Treaty right to hunt whales. They will hunt again and they will take another whale. There is nothing you can do to stop it. To paraphase Seawolf "The hunt is legal. End of story. Now you can all pack up and go home."

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
31.08.2000

To Paul Watson

I read your comments on SWK on your participation in the occupation of Wounded Knee. You stated that you weren't surprised that Leonard Crow Dog didn't remember you. You stated that you were a young volunteer. So was I and Leonard recognizes and acknowledges me. I didn't commit half the heroic acts you did. I didn't crawl on my belly for 12 hours in a South Dakota storm. I didn't run through a hail of lead to rescue Rocky. I didn't remove the bullett. I was there at the time. My picture is in the "Voices from Wounded Knee" book. I don't know the page number. I am pictured with my friend Trudy. I still have my dual citizenship card. If you will send me a copy of your passport that Pedro signed, I will leave you alone about your Wounded Knee lies. I can have experts compare it with the signature on my card. You try to steal our treaty rights, and now our history. You are in every sense of the word a "wasicu."

Monica Charles
monicacharles@yahoo.com
31.08.2000

Seawolf A joke! You have a sense of humor. Though a racist one. There may be hope. If you want to break the treaties, we get all our land and resources back. Then you will really have to go back home.

Cinndra
Cinndra@hotmail.com
31.08.2000

John, it's clear to me that Seadork is paranoid and thinks the Native Americans are out to get white people. He's in a delusional world of his own. I don't think any amount of logic will get through to this person....he's too far gone....it's a shame too...there's so much he could learn from you

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
30.08.2000

You want to quote the part of the Makah treaty that mentions slavery ???? If you can't then your argument is as bogus as your inane logic that the hunt is illegal. YOU are the one who brought up the Constitution and how YOU would defend it .... but I guess that's only the the parts YOU agree with and to hell with everything else ay?

But thanks for pointing out your own hypocrisy again Phil, it makes my job so much easier when you hang yourself ....

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
30.08.2000

Well let's bring back all the treaties, John. Youy might as well buy some slaves and either trade them off or kill them. cause that's what the Makah did at one time.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
30.08.2000

Eat this you jerks

Four men-an East Indian, a Jamaican, a Native American, and a white man-gathered at the top of a 30-story building. The East Indian said, "This is for my people," and jumped off. The Jamaican said, "This is for my people," and jumped off. The Native American said, "This is for my people," and pushed the white man off.  

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
30.08.2000

Oh BTW Phil to break the Makah treaty like you have been proposing IS unconstitutional because the Constitution states "all treaties are the SUPREME LAW of the land" ... and the Makah have one that gives them explicite right to whale whether you like it or not you are breaking the Constitution by trying to stop them .....

THE HUNT IS LEGAL SO YOU CAN PACK UP YOUR JETSKIS AND OTHER POLLUTION DEVICES AND GO HOME ......

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
30.08.2000

Funny an ARA siting a PRO-HUNTING group, the NRA ... what a hoot. BTW Seadork I've been an NRA member since the late 70's and my brother is a part-time gunsmith. I've forgotten more about firearms than you'll ever know. The difference is I don't need to mention them every other post in order to feel like a man, but I guess those lacking in other areas of manhood like yourself find it comforting to do so ....

By the way you may want to check out this site on one of your "environmentally friendly" Republicans http://www.whopaidslade.org/

You all remember Slade, he's the guy the so-called environmental groups, the SSCS, WCCA, etc gave an award to even though his environmental policies have killed more whales, salmon and other sealife than the Makah ever could in a 100 years (If they cared to which they don't) ..... another piece of evidence that Phil and the rest are not environmentalists but shills for the Wise Use movement and other anti-Indian/anti-treaty rights racists orgs .... it's never been about whales it's about who gets to make all the money exploiting them, big business (like the BILLION $$$ whale watching industry) and the Repubs like Gorton and his "contributors" .......

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
30.08.2000

But all you are doing John is bitching about Bush. You haven't put in one complaint of Gore, that shows your support there. However if Gore gets in the White House, I am not required to cooperate with any unconstitutional laws he passes, matter of fact I have every right to break them, and so does everybody else. And there will be millions of lawbreakers if necessary

But if he does get in, you ain't gonna have to worry of the whale hunt, because you are going to be involved in an all out war, because we aren't gonna let you socalist bastards take over this country. To get what you want, total confiscation of guns, socialism etc, you are gonna have to fight us for it. because we aren't giving up our rights. I am an NRA member and we gun owners do vote. Remember 1994 when we put all the Republicans in the congress? All but a handful of the idiots who voted for Clinton/Gore's gun laws were tossed out on their ass. And Clinton credited the NRA for it as well. that's how much power we have. For every NRA member, which is almost 4 million people, we have 40-50 people who support us which makes it about 160 million to 200 million gun owners. It was the gun owners who did that, and there are millions upon millions of people and you can't stop us. To get what you want, you have to take all the people's guns away, and that you cannot do. If you try, then you don't know what you are doing.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
30.08.2000

Seadork how many times do I have to say this before it sinks into your thick skull ..... I am NOT a Democrat or a supporter ... I have ALWAYS voted 3rd party for President since 1980 which was the very 1st time I could vote for President.

To me the Republicrats are just opposite sides to the same bad penny ..... there isn't really a nickels worth of difference between them .....

I'd mention Kennedy, Jackson and the others but last I looked they aren't running for President ... you are aware of that aren't you???

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
29.08.2000

Well John, I can blame you also because you do support what Clinton/Gore do, even if you didn't vote for them.

Who cares what Bush has done with the baseball teams or how much he owns of them, Kennedy is richer and has had everything handed to him on a silver platter all his life, and you say nothing of him? It is a fact there are more richer Democrats then there are Republicans, but you accept it on the Democrats part. Jesse Jackson is even rich and lives in a mansion, and you say nothing of him either, so you have no cause to say anything of Bush or how much money he has. Matter of fact Gore is also a polluter. He owns a zinc mine at his homestead and has been mining zinc for years an is letting it get into the river. Wall Street Journal had an article of it last month. I don't have the date right on me at present, but I can get it for you. I even got a copy of the article. If I can do it, I'll post it up on here. So you saying anything of Bush and the Republicans being bad with the environment is meaningless. Another thing is Al Gore is a slumlord. He has a rental house he won't fix up for his tenant, and she has filed a complaint. the house has broken sinks, a broken bathtub, and plugged up pipes in the toilet. This is true, because she has been on the CBS News which I have seen, and they showed the house owned by Gore, and it was a dump.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
29.08.2000

Well John we are in the fight for survival. Bush is the peaceful way to do it.

You talk about guns, well probably unlike you, I HAVE BEEN SHOT AT SEVERAL TIMES some because of the views I have and it happened way before I got in the fight to save the whales. However I won't be silenced, even if you decide to shoot at me yourself.

I worry of getting shot at right now sometimes, I live in the ghetto, probably much unlike you. that's why I got to have protection. If they shoot at me, I'll shoot back. that's all I can do. If they got rid of al these goddamn gangs and drug dealers, all the citizens would be safe again.

Who doughboy is I don't know, and I have never read anything he's posted, so how could I advise him. I don't get upon the SI site very much

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
29.08.2000

Especially for you Seadork .....

Here's what happens when you let a Republican administration take control of the environment and why American Indian treaty rights are so IMPORTANT to a sound ecological future for everyone. Excerpted from the book Defending Mother Earth: Native American Perspectives on Environmental Justice, Jace Weaver, ed. Chapter 3: Custer Rides Again--This Time on the Exxon Valdez

Wisconsin currently has a very pro-mining administration, headed by Governor Tommy Thompson. Prior to the Thompson administration the state was noted for being an environmentally conscious state, sometimes with regulations stricter than federal standards. That has changed. One of those in the administration isiames Klauser, a former Exxon lobbyist. In cooperation with Kennecott and the Wisconsin Alliance of Manufacturers and Commerce, he oversaw a rewriting of Wisconsin extraction and environmental laws in favor of mining interests."

Wisconsin Native nations have begun to wage a battle on many fronts to block the Mole Lake/Crandon mine and to halt environmental devastation in general in the state. Together the Sokaogan Chippewa, Potawatomi, Menominee, Stockbridge- M un see, and Oneida have formed the Nii-Win Intertribal Council to coordinate activities.48 The council is working with an alliance of environmental and sporting groups on a comprehensive campaign known as the Watershed Alliance Toward Environmental Responsibility (WATER). Their stand against " ‘environmental racism’ may help preserve nearby waterways for Indians and non-Indians alike

Because of the technological problems associated with mining there, Wisconsin has until recently been spared the resource wars that have afflicted much of Indian Country. Although the northern portion of the state was considered for designation as a national sacrifice area in the 1970s, such a move is not now under discussion." Currently, only one mine, Kennecott's Ladysmith, is in operation. Both Natives and non-Natives are imperiled, however, by the Proposed mine at Crandon, near Mole Lake. Anti-Indian groups that coalesced during the "fishing wars" are again accusing the tribes, which seek to block the mine, of using "special rights" to prevent economic development. With the support of mining interests, they have made connections to larger national rightwing organizations, including the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance."

Under one version of the Proposed project, the mine would contaminate the Wisconsin River, which flows into the Mississippi. The Mississippi flows through ten states before reaching the Gulf of Mexico. In addition, Crandon would discharge waste into the Wolf River. The Wolf flows into Lake Winnebago. Lake Winnebago then empties into Green Bay, which in turn empties into Lake Michigan. Proposed operations would thus pollute both the Mississippi and the Lake Michigan watersheds. Over fifteen thousand lakes, plus numerous rivers and streams, are part of the unique geology of Wisconsin. All these sources, however, comprise only 3 percent of the water supply in the state because of immense groundwater reservoirs. At Mole Lake, the twentv-five-hundred-foot shafts would drain groundwater "in much the same way that a hypodermic needle draws blood from a patient." After use in the mining process, this water would then be discharged into the Wolf. Operations would cause the water table to drop by as much as seven feet over a four-square mile area. Exxon justifies this by saying that the process will create wetlands and thus enhance rather than degrade the environment. In reality, the mine could destroy eighty acres of wetlands, and those that would be "created" would be merely the result of drawing down lakes to a depth at which they would qualify for wetland status. The corporation is targeting the area of waste discharge in Rice Lake, the site of the Mole Lake communities wild rice crops. Contamination would endanger both fish in the lake and the rice crop, discharging six million gallons of water over the seven-acre site. Although the Chippewa complained that the mine would destroy the wild rice, critical to their way of life, a biologist for Exxon reportedly mistook the rice crop for "lake weeds" and could not understand the concern over them. When pressed, Exxon did admit that its environmental impact study reported that the mine would render the Mole Lake reservation's subsistence usages as "less than effective." Despite this, recent changes in Wisconsin's environmental regulation have removed from Exxon any responsibility to monitor groundwater within the mining boundaries, and the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources has exempted the company from the need to obtain a permit for the Crandon mine, finding that the water would not be discharged into a wetland.

Because the mining site lies on a twelve-square mile tract promised to the Sokaogan Chippewa in 1855, the Mole Like tribe is asserting its treaty rights over the location. As tribal judge Fred Ackley stated, "If they go ahead with their mine, our tribe is going to be devastated."50 Meanwhile, the Menominees also are filing suit, claiming their rights to hunt, fish, and gather on ceded lands. The Menominee claim covers the whole of northeastern Wisconsin down to Milwaukee. If they are successful, this will create additional leverage to challenge all mining operations in the area. In a move reminiscent of the 1980s and early 1990s, the day the lawsuit was filed anti-Indian groups again began protesting, accusing Natives of attempting to destroy all the fish and take away all the resources. Despite such opposition, Nii-Win chair Hilary Waukau Sr. has vowed that, if Crandon receives the required permits, the tribes will sue in federal court." An attempt in state court to get an injunction against preliminary work at Mole Lake failed on 'November 7, 1994

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
29.08.2000

To the impersonator of God. There is a scripture that clearly states" Thou shalt not take the Lord thy God's name in vain." Your blasphemous portrayal of God is doing just that. The Bible consists of both old and new testaments and animal sacrifice is mentioned frequently in the old testament. It is logical and relevent that had God not been pleased with the sacrifice rendered unto Him then He was very capable of relaying that information to His chosen.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
28.08.2000

What worries me is that judging from Doughbrain's latest post on SI is that Seadork is handing out advice again.

Just what we need in America, another paranoid schizo with a gun ......

Mother Earth
onwhichyoustand,com
27.08.2000

All life is in my care. I bless those that live in harmony with all life. Hunting is the natural order of the food chain. Even vegans take life to survive.

Cinndra
Cinndra@hotmail.com
27.08.2000

Hey John....Seadork has some major anger issues...maybe that "shrink" from SI boards can help him....what do you think? *giggling*

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
27.08.2000

BTW Seadork, I'm up early this morning because I'm going out to clean up the shoreline of the Mississippi like I do two weekends every month from April though October. We've cleaned up both sides of the river from Keokuk to north of Dubuque over the last couple of years, and the payoff is they finally lifted the warnings on eating certain fish (mostly bottom feeders) because the toxins in them are the lowest in nearly 20 years. Unlike you idiots we don't blame the fisherman, we blame the polluters and then do something tanglible about it. (That's a hint to stop bitching about people eating toxic whales and attack the REAL problem, the polluters, even if none are eaten whales will just as toxic and even more so because then no one will care)

So tell us all the environmentally friendly things you are doing today? (Writing insane posts and name calling doesn't count)

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
27.08.2000

I'm flattered that you give us so much power and control but the fact is I never voted for Clinton either time or intend on voting for Gore this time ... (voted Libertarian in the past but leaning towards Greens, the best of personal freedom and environmental common sense) So blaming me for the fires is inane and ignorant on your part (Not surprising though) I'd blame Gorton, Metcalf and the others who are always pushing for more dams, more cyanide mines (Which use a ton of water)and the clear cutting of our remaining National Forests, effectively destroying the water tables over much of the west. The Creator made the rivers the way they are for a reason but always some arrogant person who thinks they know better (Well really are just greedy to make a couple of bucks and to hell with the next generations)

Then again I didn't vote for Elder Bush (Who was extremely environmentally unfriendly) or Dole (Slightly better environmentally but not much) and I certainly would vote for Shrub after seeing how he's wrecked the environment in Texas, sold out to his oil buddies (And how about that part interest in a baseball team at no cost to himself, talk about a nifty bribe, makes Hillary and Bill's cattle scam seem like peanuts in comparison) not to mention his lack of grasp of the Constitution or international politics ....

You'll see if (and that's a big if) he gets elected. If he does how much you wanna bet full scale industrial whaling is brought back with his wishes? Except for Indians of course, it'll be all white run and contolled corporations ...... and of course open up most of the Alaska coast for his oil buddies, that would be the very 1st thing he'd do .....

Two years ago I would have never believed it if people told me animal rights advocate were far right wing extremists .... go figure .....

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
27.08.2000

Not only don't you guys at CERTAIN and your cohorts Clinton/Gore give a shit, You are also responsible for the mismanagement of the environment and the forest service, which is one of the reasons we are having the bad fires this year. John, Hunter, MTH and all the rest of you and Clinton/Gore are responsible for the fires and the damage they have done to people by burning them out of their homes, and killing the wildlife as well. We need Bush in there, cause you bastards don't know how to take care of the environment. Look at all the dead forests around you guys refuse to even let be cleaned out. The trees need to be saved, yes, but not all the dead branches and stumps as well. So don't even tall me of Bush's environmental records because your record is worse.

I hope you bastards are happy with what you did to all the people who have been burned out of their homes, and maybe that's what you have intended to happen all along. People have every reason to be afraid of all of you being on a fire department, because you bastards don't know how to fight a fire. All you know is how to let the house and land burn up.

You bastards are a bunch of incompetent jerks.You do not know what you are doing.

If Bush or any other Republican had been in the White House today, we wouldn't have the fires we have had this year.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
27.08.2000

What the fuck do you give a shit shithead John Russel, You could care less about the environment, or else you would not support the whale hunt, and THAT IS A FACT.

You know some day when you die,they ought to bury your ass upside down and plug up your asshole. That way you can't fart upwards at the world, and stink us out. You wanna get mean, I'LL JUST GET MEANER.

You bastards at CERTAIN should have your website pulled because you forge people's names and addresses all the time (You know what the fuck I'm talking about and who your latest victim is), and you bastards all belong in jail, and you very well might possibly be. And you know who can do it too. I need not tell you cause you already know who it is who will put you there.

Now have a nice rotten day in hell with the middle finger pointed up at you SCUMBAG.

P.S. You are damn scared of Bush, I know it, and he will get elected. You might as well pack up and leave the US, because that's the only hope you have.

The Lord God
lg@heavenabove
26.08.2000

The question was, why was I so pleased that they were sacrificing live animals. I asked you to show me where it says I was pleased. God is perfect, yes. Men, those who wrote the Bible, were not. Don't believe me? Read the first 4 books of the New Testament and tell me they all see eye to eye on what happened. Unless you were there and heard me tell them to do those things, then you don't know what the truth is. That's where faith comes into play. The Bible was inspired by God, not written by Him. Just because a man says he was told to do something by God doesn't mean he really was. I'm starting to think I should have just stuck with the first animal I created. The great whale. They don't give me all this grief.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
26.08.2000

The person impersonating God should read the old testament for sacrifice was mentioned many times even one incident where God instructed one of His faithful to take his own son for human sacrifice but at the last minute stopped his hand as he raised to it to take his son's life and provided him with a ram to sacrifice instead. Tell me impersonator, isn't God perfect? Did He not only provide the sacrificial ram but instructed His faithful follower to carry out the sacrifice? I suggest you read the Bible before attempting to impersonate God. It would serve you well to first learn the script prior to trying to play the part.

The Lord God
lg@heavenabove
25.08.2000

You dare to question God, oh ye of little faith? Where in the Old Testament does it say I was happy with those who offered sacrifices? They chose to do that by their own will, much like trappers of today do so and claim they are the hand that balances nature. Even when people commit foul deeds like that, I still love them. God does not hate his creations although some of their behaviors leave something to be desired. Why didn't you scold longjohn for putting words in my mouth and saying I hate cowards? Where was that phrase in the Holy Bible? The message is that God does not hate. He loves all, no matter how big a jerk they are here on earth. If you have a problem with what the Jews did, vote for Bush.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
25.08.2000

To the person impersonating the Lord God. Please explain why you were so pleased by the sacrifices of live animals during the period covered by the Old Testament by your chosen people the Jews. And do have any knowledge of what is meant by blasphemy or sacrilege?

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
25.08.2000

How about ths blast from the past:

I Got My Head Stuck Up Paul Watson's Butt When He Stopped Short by unlim2000, July 13, 01:43

Tiegen
Tiegen2@aol.com
25.08.2000

BTW Unlimt2000 what was that business about "be afraid - be very afraid"???!!! Once again you have taken something out of context and thrown a few lines out of a statement to, I guess, make it look threatening!! I can't even imagine my saying something like that! No my style. And from April?!! Sweetie - this is almost September!! I don't even think that I was on the forum until May! Oh well, as usual, you are making a fool of yourself! Later Maggie.

Tiegen
Tiegen2@aol.com
25.08.2000

Unlim 2000? Unique choice of name, kind of like Howler?! So Alma and DB are having a contest huh? I understood that Alma was going to offer a cash reward for my license plates! Thats OK because I have HER address too! But I'm not going to post it here or anywhere else! I AM NOT AN ACTIVIST. I don't know where you came up with this but I burned my protest signs long ago and announced that on the forum. And I don't need you telling me anything Maggie 'little miss-information' cuz I can say whatever I please. I am not afraid of you. So, have you seen a doctor yet? Some medication would really help with those seizures you were having recently on the SI Whaling Forum. Have a nice day.

The Lord God
lg@heavenabove
25.08.2000

I love all my creations the same, longjohn. The beasts and the children are blessed equally, cowards included. Even those that kill my beloved creatures in the name of tradition are loved by me. God "hates" no one, OK? Just thought I should let you know. Bless you, my son.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
24.08.2000

Thanx Unlim for admitting you were the ones who started this crap of names and pictures. It made my point to the tee that YOU have NO right to expect ANY privacy if you go around violating everyone else's.

So why is Jim whining so damn much if this is "the name of the game"?

And reminder to all you idiots who hide behind fake names ... God hates a coward ....

unlim2000
unlim2000@hotmail.com
24.08.2000

Tiegen:

Tiegen says "let he who cast the first stone be sinless."

Aaaaw, tiegen hon, you got all bent out of shape cause almatemp and devilfish said they would have a contest on who could get a picture of your little red VW with the black bra. What in the hell do you think protesters from both sides take cameras for? They aint taking pictures of the scenery hon. Faces and cars are the name of the game, you being the big activist sure don't know much about activism do you? You flap your mouth about what you do,where you work, where you live, what you drive, nobody cares hon.

Remember this threat? Lots more where this one came from.

· Be afraid - be very afraid!! by tiegen, Apr 23, 00:43

Guess you forgot huh?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
24.08.2000

John Russel:

Great quote! I've got to add it to my site.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
24.08.2000

As between the skulking and furtive poacher, who hunts for the sake of meat, and the honest gentleman shooter, who kills for the pleasure of sport, I find the former a higher type of humanity.

Trout fishing. One must be a stickler for proper form. Use nothing but #4 blasting caps. Or a hand grenade, if handy. Or at a pool well-lined with stone, one blast from a .44 magnum will bring a few stunned brookies quietly to the surface.

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your Tee Vee; kill your own beef; build your own cabin and piss off the front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.

South of the border: The Hispanics despise the mestizos, the mestizos look with contempt on *Los Indios*, the Indians take it out on their women and dogs.

Farting is such sweet sorrow.

I am happy to be a regional writer. My region is the American West, old Mexico, West Virginia, New York, Europe, Australia, the human heart, and the male groin.

I, too, believe in fidelity. But how can I be true to one woman without being false to all the others?

The feminist notion that the whole of human history has been nothing but a vast intricate conspiracy by men to enslave their wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters presents us with an intellectual neurosis for which we do not yet have a name.

In everything but brains and brawn, women are vastly superior to men. A different race.

Belief in the supernatural reflects a failure of the imagination.

Edward Abbey (ad nauseum)

Dan Spomer
wcca@olypen.com
24.08.2000

"Remaining silent about the destruction of nature is an endorsement of that destruction."

Ed Abbey (again)

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
24.08.2000

Yup and the Makah are more a part of tha natural world than the organizations like WCCA that oppose, exploit and try to dominate them as they do all things wordwide .....

Dan Spomer
wcca@olypen.com
24.08.2000

For WrongJohn...

"Though men now possess the power to dominate and exploit every corner of the natural world, nothing in that fact implies that they have the right or the need to do so."

Edward Abbey

Tiegen
Tiegen2@aol.com
24.08.2000

I am here to set the record straight. I posted a small portion of this man's address on the SI forum to let him know that I was serious that his threats against me were being taken seriously. He and his buddy AlmaTemp had been making some real serious threats. They were saying that they would offer a reward to the person who could get pictures of my license plates. Now what do you suppose they planned on doing with those pictures? I won't just sit there and take that. I had that address for months before I decided to let DevilFish know that I was capable of bringing the police to his doorstep, in a heartbeat, if he threatened and/or harmed me in any way. Of course he has taken this all out of context here and tryed to turn it around. Would you lie under oath DevilFish? Now don't go around telling stories and remember - let he who cast the first stone be sinless.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
24.08.2000

If Bush gets into office you can kiss the environment and all National parks and forests goodbye. He will open them up to corporate abuse in a heartbeat and it will be the idiots like you Phil who will be the blame....

ANYONE who advocates Bush IS NOT an environmentalist and can't give a damn about animals or the environment at all. No doubt he is the worst and last choice of any true environmentalist or animal rights advocate, which is why I have to conclude you are neither. It obvious you are just another far right fanatic that is using environmentalism/animal rights as a springboard for your white supremist pro-corporate agendas. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are in reality just a shill for the Fair Use movement......

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
24.08.2000

Another interesting Edward Abbey quote:

The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information.

So Dano it looks to me Abbey would have more respect for the Makah whalers than he would have for the likes of you .... but then again Abbey was self proclaied meat eater who loved his steaks "thick and bloody" ......

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
24.08.2000

Well the Makah whalers have until January 20th 2001 When President Bush gets into office, The Makah can kiss their whale hunt good bye.

You guys are very afraid of Bush if he gets in, I think you are very worried. Because you know he ain't gonna let you do no whale hunt.

THIS WHALE HUNT IS ILLEGAL, PERIOD You guys better get that thru your rock headed skulls.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
23.08.2000

Dan Spomer:

Here's another quote from your hero Edward Abbey: "Latin americans are culturally, genetically, and morally inferior"..Edward Abbey advocated an iron curtain of sorts on the U.S/Mexico border, to keep these "inferiors" out. Your brand of virulent prejudice has deep roots, Dan; I wonder who else you idolize?

You're a nobody on the fringe, Dan; the majority of North Americans realize that there is no "environmental" or ecological issue per se with the Makah hunt: just a bunch of extremists, morons and nutbars who like to say "fuck" a lot, and issue death threats. Hardly the sort of movement anybody but the FBI pays much mind to. Doubt it? Check the most recent Gallup poll conducted on whaling: you've lost before you began, and nobody really gives a fig what you have to say: that's why you send airheads on jetskis directly into harm's way: it's the only way you can get press. With such spectacular displays of stupidity, you'll always find a spot on the 11 o'clock news, not because your cause resonates with the many; rather, because your antics allow the dumb to feel a little better about themselves. I will be thinking of you at the next whale feast, and the one after that; because even should you goobers actually fulfill your moronic destiny and breach the exclusion zone, history shows that you'll all likely be too hungover to get there in time. The new EA is coming, and being a ENVIRONMENAL document compiled by thinking people who actually understand, and this is a big word coming up Dan, ECOLOGY, there will be no measurable impact assessed from the harvest of 5 whales from a population of 26,000; a population which is starving itself to death. Just some facts for you; I know you don't have many of your own. See ya later or not, I could care less.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
23.08.2000

Dan Spomer:

Here's another quote from your hero Edward Abbey: "Latin americans are culturally, genetically, and morally inferior"..Edward Abbey advocated an iron curtain of sorts on the U.S/Mexico border, to keep these "inferiors" out. Your brand of virulent prejudice has deep roots, Dan; I wonder who else you idolize?

You're a nobody on the fringe, Dan; the majority of North Americans realize that there is no "environmental" or ecological issue per se with the Makah hunt: just a bunch of extremists, morons and nutbars who like to say "fuck" a lot, and issue death threats. Hardly the sort of movement anybody but the FBI pays much mind to. Doubt it? Check the most recent Gallup poll conducted on whaling: you've lost before you began, and nobody really gives a fig what you have to say: that's why you send airheads on jetskis directly into harm's way: it's the only way you can get press. With such spectacular displays of stupidity, you'll always find a spot on the 11 o'clock news, not because your cause resonates with the many; rather, because your antics allow the dumb to feel a little better about themselves. I will be thinking of you at the next whale feast, and the one after that; because even should you goobers actually fulfill your moronic destiny and breach the exclusion zone, history shows that you'll all likely be too hungover to get there in time. The new EA is coming, and being a ENVIRONMENAL document compiled by thinking people who actually understand, and this is a big word coming up Dan, ECOLOGY, there will be no measurable impact assessed from the harvest of 5 whales from a population of 26,000; a population which is starving itself to death. Just some facts for you; I know you don't have many of your own. See ya later.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
23.08.2000

Dan Spomer--

Are you a racist? Let's see, you have one of the most hatefilled guestbooks online concerning this issue and do absolutely nothing to edit or delete the racist or violent threats posted there. You are associated with people like Chuck Owens who has been locally known among the tribes for years as a racist and who fights the Indians at every chance he gets, kinda like your other allies Metcalf and Gorton. You chum around organizations like SS, WWP, and WCAWS. Yes, I would say using "reason" as the foundation that the "birds of a feather" rule would be applicable.

And using "reason" as a guideline Dan, a "reasoned" person would know that your bareboned and non stop diatribes of "illegal", especially given your hodgepodge mixing of assorted quotes from non authoritative sources is not a foundation of persuasion when someone investigates the issues as you present them on your "gossip" newsletter.

Terrorist associations? I would say your website which uses the exact same tactic of the stalkers of abortion clinics pretty much speaks for itself. Advocation of violence extended beyond this into your association with ODI and SS.

And John is 100% correct here in what he says. I just returned from a trip to Colorado and all along the way and while there I met or saw absolutely not one single person who readily knew what was going on here. When I got specific a "few" said something like "yeah I remember something about the Indians getting a whale". When I spoke of the protests and your actions NOT ONE supported that Dan, not a single one.

We both know your gossip column you put out only works on those who are closed minded and do not investigate things on their own. We both know your groupies for the most part are racists, are advocates of terrorism for animal rights and that the whales are a nice way to get to spend some time in a resort on other people's money.

Saving face Dan? I would say that is the question that you have to start seriously considering.

Kii yaa tuk (Keith Hunter) P. O. Box 482 Neah Bay, Washington 98357

360-645-3161

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
23.08.2000

Dano wether you realize it or not but to the vast majority of Americans, Makah whaling in NOT even an issue. Welcome to the REAL world but outside your area most people don't even care about it and most have to be reminded that they even took a whale. 9 times out of 10 they don't even think it was a big deal to begin with. Ask yourself this... have you ever seen even ONE national poll about it? Has it ever once been mentioned in ANY of the Presidential election polls?

It's a rubberband that doesn't even exist for most Americans and it has had absolutely NO effect on American Indians in the midwest states like Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc. I know it's your dream that it would but the facts are it's not even a consideration by the pro-treaty and anti-Indian factions in this part (and most parts) of the country .... it just doesn't come up in conversations at all .... get a grip on reality .....

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
23.08.2000

Phil as usual your slavery analogy is as bogus as your knowledge of US and Constitutional law. There is a Constitutional amendment specifically banning slavery but NOT A ONE that invalidates ANY treaty between the US and ANY Indian nation.

Annuity payments are just that, payments made to the tribes in exchange for land as defined by treaties, most of which the tribes were forced to sign with a gun to their heads ....

We get NO "special rights" (Actually there is NO SUCH a thing anyway) but only get to keep the rights we have ALWAY had, as evidenced by the Supreme Court decision I provided for you earlier. Obviously it was above your reading comprehension level but again this is what it means ... "Rights in comon with ... " means that it was NOT a right for Indians only but it could also be a right for all US citizens BUT it is GUARANTEED for the Indian tribe that signed the treaty.... It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp for most reasonably intelligent people ....

And as the drug usage the FACTS are American Indian drug related arrests PER CAPITA are lower than ANY OTHER race and nearly half that of the US population in general.(American Indians and Crime - U.S. Department of Justice Report Feb. 1999) Your constant insinuations that Indians are on drugs or more prone to drug usage is EXACTLY what makes you look like a racist ...

And as for Athena McIntyre, well the poem she wrote full of most vile racist rhetoric and stereotypes I have ever seen says all anyone needs to know about her and of how little value her opinion is. Cripes she was booted from ODI(then called SEDNA), StopWhaleKill, SI forum and her ISP for her racist commentaries. Even most anti-whaling don't want anything to do with her at all ... except like minded racists pretending to care about whales and it looks like that would have to include you Phil .....

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
23.08.2000

The Makah people are not the only Indians suffering under the rantings, insults, vulgarity, and generally jerky behavior of the lunatic fringe in animal rights cults.

The Hopi in Arizona, the Chippewa in Michigan, the Sioux in South Dakota, have all faced the vicious racism of these kooks.

It seems to be a growing, frightening trend... and I ask the same question I've asked here several times before... If they are not racists why are these protest groups predominately white? Where are the black folks? They don't even present a token front, that I've seen.

http://carnivoresunited.webjump.com

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
23.08.2000

Well Longjohn silver has it wrong again. that opinion doesn't say shit that common citizens don't have the same rights, they do. What the hell makes you think Indians have special rights. they don't.

Matter of fact, they used to get per capita checks in the 1960's and 1970's just because they were indians until the government took those checks away. Now you have to work like the rest of us peons.

If you think the treaty is law, then how about the treaty saying you could hold slaves and kill them. shall we resurrect that one as well.

THIS WHALE HUNT IS ILLEGAL PERIOD.

Also how you like the poachers that Sea Shepherd stopped yeasterday with the help of the Brazilian government and one of their military police officers. 4 boats are gonna be seized because of Sea Shepherd's actions. the Coast Guard has no right to protect this hunt, we have every right to forcibly stop you if we have to. I hope the USCG was happy they let drugs get into the country while protecting the Makah. Course the whalers probably got some as well.

Now MTHF, Hunter, and Longjohn silver can go smoke some more crack

Bunch of goddamn drugheads.

Athena was right after all

Dan Spomer
wcca@olypen.com
23.08.2000

"Reason has seldom failed us because it has seldom been tried." Ed Abbey

Do any of you have ANY idea what's in store for the whalers of Neah Bay? I've said it for years, and I'll say it again: What they are doing now will set back Native issues by decades. It's like a rubber band: you can only stretch it so far before it either breaks or snaps back and makes you yell "Ouch!" Nobody wants that.

I have a feeling that most of you pro-whalers are pretty much aware by now that the Makah whalers are not gonna make it in the long run. Their plan is doomed, as it was from the start (face it, the Tribal Council is not exactly "bright"), and a new administration is gonna pound these whaler-wanna-bes into the sand. From the e-mails that get forwarded to me from your "secret" list, you already know it.

I also have a feeling that most of you know in your heart I'm no racist. But I honestly don't care if you do think that. It matters very little to me, as my immediate family is multi-racial, and I could give a shit what someone else thinks about me. Or my family.

I do care about this: the big question haunting y'all since June is: how do the Makah whalers back out and save face without taking the Makah people down the toilet with them?

All it takes is a bit of common sense to figure this thing out... and, as usual, I have the solution.

E-mail me for the details. Confidentiality guaranteed. But don't waste my time. Only write me if you have phone numbers in your Rolodex that start with 645. Mine starts with 963.

Dan Spomer Washington Citizen's Coastal Alliance

wcca@olypen.com

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
23.08.2000

Storm You have to read closely, if you had you would have known it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for MTHF, Hunter, and Long john silver. so if you took it to mean you as well, don't do that You have to read between the lines, which I know you can do. However I owe these guys no apology for the statement. Like I said, you need to read between the lines. these guys have already got one guy so goddamn scared they are gonna kill his family, and for good reason. MTHF and Hunter and Longjohn silver are capable of doing such an act. Most of the Makah are peaceful folks, Hunter, and MTHF and Longjohn silver are not, of just one is a Makah. I spose Hunter is the one who shot alberta's dog, slashed her tires. and maybe stole her check. He'd do that for sure. Hunter is a scumbag

THIS WHALE HUNT IS ILLEGAL Now you guys can pack your shit up and go home

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
23.08.2000

You are right Bradley. This is what CERTAIN has said all along, you don't have to be "prowhaling" to be anti racism.

Kii yaa tuk

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
23.08.2000

You want to know about the Nexus/Lexus database? Well here is the page I was told to look at by a lawyer in regards to the *illusion* of privacy.

http://www.lexis-nexis.com/business/public_records/

Welcome To the World of Online Fact-Finding Efficiency!

LEXIS®-NEXIS® Public Records online service simplifies factual research on persons, businesses and their assets by gathering millions of individual and business records in easy-to-use, cost-effective searches.

Our Public Records can quickly tell you Who, What, Where, and often Why.

Whatever your area of professional interest:

Business Intelligence Journalism Information Professional Insurance Investigation Private Investigation Law Enforcement Executive Searching Marketing Research/Public Relations Fund Raising

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
23.08.2000

More threats Unlim AKA Alma?

Thanks for making my case for me, it's now obvious to everyone here who is making all the threats ... IT'S YOU!!!

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
23.08.2000

I agree with Storm on the issue of certain choice words that are being used . Swearing is one thing but vulgarity is another and the "f' word has no place here or anywhere else. I have been guilty of swearing but have always tried to stay in bounds with my vocabulary. I read with interest a post which refers to the "harming of whales". There are two vivid pictures to be looked at in respect to harvesting whales for food and sustenance or not taking any whales and permitting them to reach vast numbers which their food sources will not take care of. It's seem preferable to quickly kill a whale with whatever means rather than to permit them to undergo the agony and pain of death by slow starvation. I had much rather see a hunting quota established annually keeping the whale population in check which would perhaps insure a more healthy species than those permitted to become emaciated and die from either disease or from low fat reserves. Well fed whales also are known to have better immune systems than those that are not subject to ample feeding. It is hunting that improves the quality of life for the herd. The removal of surplus individuals for meat and blubber does not in fact "harm" the herd but promotes a better quality life for those remaining.

unlim2000
unlim2000@hotmail.com
23.08.2000

L.J says: "Why the omission of that crucial defining statement??"

Why? Because you are a goddam liar, it wasn't in the post. The post is in its entirety. I am not some little old lady you can terrify. You sonofabitch, I am not someone you can scare off with your terrorist tactics, you see Russell I have a few of my own. Watch for the "rest of the story" asshole.

Like you I got nothing to lose.

BTW Nexus/Lexus database? Why not ask the professional student, your sidekick on CERTAIN, who uses this engine to find out all the shit on anti-whaling protesters. Does he do it during working hours, he is employed by the University of Arizona is he not?

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.08.2000

Who has access to the Nexus/Lexus database?

Nearly every lawyer in the United States

Nearly every University in the United States.

Nearly every Fortune 500 company in the United States.

Nearly every department in the US and state government.

Actually anyone who has the cash to pay for this service .... and it isn't cheap ....

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.08.2000

Seawolf, WCCA, SSCS and most of the other anti-Makah/anti-American Indian organizations seem to have a problem with basic law and the interpretation of the often used treaty phrase "In common with the people of the United States". Well there is a very long standing Supreme Court decision that sent the precedence for ALL court and legal interpretation of this phrase and it has been a that way since 1905.

For your future reference and to PROVE you are wrong ... again .... as usual:

US v. Winans, 198 U.S. 371 (1905), Justice McKenna wrote for the Supreme Court:

"The right to resort to the fishing places in controversy was a part of larger rights possessed by the Indians, upon the exercise of which there was not a shadow of impediment, and which were not much less necessary to the existence of the Indians than the atmosphere they breathed. New conditions came into existence, to which those rights had to be accommodated. Only a limitation of them, however, was necessary and intended, not a taking away. In other words, the treaty was not a grant of rights to the Indians, but a grant of right from them,-a reservation of those not granted. And the form of the instrument and its language was adapted to that purpose. Reservations were not of particluar parcels of land, and could not be expressed in deeds, as dealings between private individuals. The reservations were in large areas of territory, and the negotiations were with the tribe. They reserved rights, however, to every individual Indian, as though named therein. They imposed a servitude upon every piece of land as though described therein. There was an exclusive right of fishing reserved within certain boundaries. There was a right outside of those boundaries reserved 'in common with citizens of the territory.' As a mere right, it was not exclusive in the Indians. Citizens might share it, but the Indians were secured in its enjoyment by a special provision of means for its exercise. They were given 'the right of taking fish at all usual and assustomed places,' and the right 'of erecting temporary buildings for curing them.' The contingency of the future ownership of the lands, therefore, was foreseen and provided for; in other words, the Indians were given a right in the land,-the right of crossing it to the river,-the right to occupy it to the extent and for the purpose mentioned. No other conclusion would give effect to the treaty. And the right was intended to be continuing against the United States and its grantees as well as against the state and its grantees."

See, the Makah treaty is LEGALLY BINDING and is backed by US law, the US Constitution and the Supreme Court of the United States.

How much more LEGAL can you get than THAT?

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
22.08.2000

I have to agree with Storm about the foul language. I find it very disturbing as well as disheartening that those of us that are against harming whales would use such language. Everything that we say and do should be a reflection of the benevolence of our cause. If we are ever to make inroads in this debate, we will have to show the world that we as individuals are beyond the gratituitous expression of anger. Let your passion flow, but do so in a way that does not reflect poorly on our cause.

Give your opposition sweet nothing to hold against you, and hope that all of the ugliness comes from their side.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.08.2000

So Unlim AKA Alma why did you leave out the most pertinent part of that post?? You know the part that says the reason I know all this is because it happened to ME.

Why the omission of that crucial defining statement??

Because it dodesn't fit YOUR agenda of a smear campaign to hide your own evil deeds on the SI forum perhaps .....

What I related there was a composit of information and advice I got from my ISP, the offending person's ISP, and my personal lawyer (Not anyone you know) about the posting of MY name, address, phone number and past employers on an internet chat board by a lowlife that in the end made the critical mistake of threatening my via email which got him not only booted from his ISP, it got him booted out of his university and had all his government backed student loans revoked.

But hey, half truths, distortion of facts and blantant lies are what I have alway gotten from you and your little gang of idiots on SI and it's all I expect from you anymore .....

Storm
chutwood@uswest.net
22.08.2000

Phil (Seawolf),

You and I had conversations in the past on SWK in which we greatly disagreed with each other, but even at those times, I never remember you being so hateful and blatantly racist. In a post this date, you called pro-whalers and Indians (re treaty rights) "motherfuckers." As an Indian and a supporter of the Makah people, what I have ever done to you to be called such a name? When you make a blanket insult like that one, it covers all of us, not just the few you are really, really angry with. I'm disappointed in you. I had believed you were passionate in your beliefs, as I am in mine, but I would not have believed you would call me a motherfucker.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
22.08.2000

Who do we know has access to: "Then the lucky few who happen to have university access to the Nexus/Lexus database,"

Answer:

MICHAEL TWOHORSE 'NENAH RALPH' JORDAN

I'M OUTTA HERE, AND THATS MY FINAL ANSWER.

unlim2000
unlim2000@hotmail.com
22.08.2000

Post a reply ] [ Post a new message ] LMAO by longjohn

Jimbo for $25 I can can all the info I would ever want on anyone ... If I wanted to find your wife's first name and maiden name ... county courthouse marriage records, costs just a couple of bucks to have them do a search... need to find your address, well a number of companies sell reverse lookup info (all you need is one of the following - a name, an address or a phone number) used mainly by sales people but for a few bucks anyone can buy one. Then the lucky few who happen to have university access to the Nexus/Lexus database, well that has everything about everyone, bank loans, house loans and mortgages, car loans, any court cases or arrests .... well you get the point and NONE of it is illegal .... it is never a matter of if I can find it, it's only a matter of how much I am willing to spend and if that person is worth it .... but don't let your head swell Jimbo, you are certainly NOT worth more than 10 bucks .....

And actually posting names, addreses and phone numbers isn't illegal and it goes on all the time all over the net, go spend some time on a Yahoo forum or game room and you'll see that crap happening all the time and even Yahoo says SO WHAT, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT ....

It's not a very nice thing to do morally or ethically but trust me it is done all the time there is really nothing that can be done but perhaps have the person banned from the forum and even that doesn't work, just get a new nick and back in business. Maybe their ISP will do something but unless there is an accurate "paper trail" (like a verifiable email) it's impossible to prove in court anyway because no ISP will give you the log information for such a petty case as exposing an already publically (and all of them are)known address, name or phone number.

Who do we know has access to: "Then the lucky few who happen to have university access to the Nexus/Lexus database,"

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
22.08.2000

JOHN RUSSELL..CONSUMATE LIAR.

Since your so prous of the fact you can give proof on all your worthless .b.s, i assume you can provide this proof of my alleged tactic of posting addresses?

The first part of your paragraph is an outright lie, and you have no proof. Your only reason for saying what said is to cover your guilt in putting my family in danger from first nation thugs. Below is your lie.

Recently he and another made posts threatening another woman on SI by handing out her name and address to other anti-whaling people

Saying and doing are 2 different things. You obviously are hellbent on having me killed, for only having an opinion.

The police are watching this situation, and i am on defense mode.

You better pray no one from your side does something stupid because of your terrorist tactics.

The Dreaded MTH
certainorg@uswest.net
22.08.2000

Thanks, Phil, for your delusional comments, but disagreeing with your positions on the Makah whaling controversy (anti-whaling positions mixed liberally with your assertions that you have guns and can protect yourself, and are a fan of Charlton Heston and the NRA, ever a bastion of animal rightists) does not now nor did it ever constitute "death threats."

You're probably the greatest danger to yourself, but thanks for sharing...

mth

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
22.08.2000

And for everyone on here, I have received death threats from these bastards before. That's why I advocate protecting yourselves if these fuckers come to your house, and probably they wll have weapons on them as well I bet longjohn silver and Kiiyutuk and 2 horses-fucking and Spaulding have weapons and they plan on carrying them and plan on blowing us away as as well. They are very capable of going out and unjustly killing somebody. I already know, these jerks have made death threats against me and several Sea Shepherd members as well. We just have to fight you back if you intend harm to me or anybody else, which you do and have intended for all along.

Folks you have more reason to be afraid of Russell, MTH , Hunter of killing all of us, they already have one person so scared they are gonna kill his family All these folks on the pro-whaling people are very dangerous people and capable of killing another human being and will do so. That's why we have a 2nd Amendment right to protect ourslves in self defense if necessary, from assholes like these.

We have made no death threats to anybody self defense is not murder anyway. But we have gotten plenty from their side for sure.

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
22.08.2000

Wrong again, Johnny

that treaty says "in common with the citizens"

which means you can't hunt whales unless all the citzens have that same right, which means me and everyboy else. Lest you motherfuckers think you got special rights

But you guys are good at breaking laws anyway and poaching. Take the 3 Makah's who were arrested and will be fined for taking 1000 fish (salman) which they are facicing fines of $5,00 dollars apiece, and also they have forfeited their catch to Canada.

I will repeat as I said before a time or 2, THS MAKAH WHALE HUNT IS ILLEGAL, no matter what you say. If you want to abide by all your treaties, go back to holding slaves and kiling them as well, like the Makah used to do. Not all treaties are enforceable, PERIOD.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.08.2000

And Dano you are WRONG ....again ... as usual.

They Makah have a valid treaty that is not only backed by law but specifically in the main body of the US Constitution, you remember the part that says ALL treaties shall be the SUPREME LAW of the land ....

How much more legal can you get than that????

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
22.08.2000

Jim got booted from CERTAIN for one reason only, he took the name of one of the people on our list and posted it to the SI board when that person wished to remain anonymous there as many ladies like to do on the internet. It was just another in a long line of intiidation tactics used by he and several others there. They tried it on both myself and Kii Yaa Tuk but sine we are not afraid and have nothing to hide we gave them our full names, addresses, email addys and phone numbers. Took away their power of intimidation over us so they turned to the ladies on the list, one was told to "watch your back", several were threatened with Wiccan incantations, and most recently release of personal information and photographs of license plates were threatened in several postings by them.

Recently he and another made posts threatening another woman on SI by handing out her name and address to other anti-whaling people and also posting a reward for anyone who could give them a picture of her license plates. It was THEN AND ONLY THEN that I made the post telling them to knock off the crap or they might find their own personal info posted also. In other words people in glass houses, like Jim and Alma, should not throw stones.....

They complained to the SI list administator and in an exchange of a few emails between myself and the SI list admin. I was able to point out to her what had happened and after reviewing the FACTS I was allowed to stay on the list, thereby I can still say I have NEVER been banned by any forum, message board, or email list in almost 5 years on the internet and 15 years using computer BBS services. Being as Jim, and his partner in crime Alma, have not posted to that forum since I have to conlude THEY were the ones that got the boot and it's not the 1st time for either of them ....

Oh and BTW Jim DID get booted from the StopWhaleKill email list by his own admission for "being too argumentative" (his own words) .... go figure ay?

Dan Spomer
wcca@olypen.com
22.08.2000

My goodness! I stopped by for a visit, hoping for some half-interesting arguments in defense of whale killing. (I'll never figure you guys out) Instead, I'm finding nothing but half-witted gibberish. The High North has really gone south lately... it seems those PCBs, dioxin and mercury are starting to take effect!

Reading some of the previous posts (the ones with the BIG words), it seems that no one wants to say it, but I will: The Makah have no legal right to resume whaling. Period. You can all go home now.

Nice place you have here, but I believe I'll mosey on down this here dusty trail. Y'see, I have to put the final nails in the coffin of his here whale hunt. See ya down the road!

Dan Spomer Washington Citizen's Coastal Alliance

Unofficial Motto: "This thing was over before it even began. You just THOUGHT you had a chance."

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
22.08.2000

URBAN...WRONG!

I have not been kicked off any anti-whaling forums, but i have been kicked off the CERTAIN list. Guess my arguments were too strong there and made those racists on CERTAIN un-comfortable and GUILTY. Much in the same way my dialogue affects people like URBAN, ADAM, and the other bloodlusters here in this wonderful place.

Thanks for the input. lol

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
22.08.2000

A note to all:

Recently, posters known as "Devilfish" and "Seawolf" have made a number of threatening, demeaning posts; please note, both of these individuals are paranoiacs who desperately crave attention: the poster known as "Devilfish" has in fact been kicked off a number of ANTI-whaling forums: his posts deemed too racist and too violent by those who oppose whale hunting. Both of these individuals should be considered dangerous: they advocate the use of armed force against those who oppose them, evidence of this is to be found in numerous postings viewable below. Again, these findings are based upon their own words, and the postings they have made, viewable by all. Ignore them: they are not a part of the whaling debate, but instead clearly unbalanced individuals subject to fits of rage (once again, look to their postings below). Help guide them towards the help they need by refusing to contribute to their delusions; this is the best thing we can do for these clearly disturbed people.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
22.08.2000

FURTAKER:

Please, i know you are not dumb, your posts are very expressive and show signs of someone who has a brain, but to say 'is it a crime' to know where i live by going out of your way to research and find this info? then post portions of it(on a public forum)? that anyone with half a brain would be able to use and go right to my front door, goes beyond the lines of terrorism, and puts my family at risk. Maybe not from that lovely and precocious tiegan, and maybe not even kiiyatuk(keith hunter)but it does possibly open the way for some 'real' disturbed person to do harm to perhaps someone in my family, or possible damage to my vehicles or house, do you understand?

I have not investigated you or gotten your home address and if i did i would not post it on the internet. You are free to do as you want in your life, i only disagree with it, and in reality, i would not attempt to stop you.

Enjoy your life, i only reserve the right to argue with you about it.

And i am not a racist, no matter how many times you and the others say it.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
22.08.2000

AMERICAN DREAM? What is it? What about freedom and the pursuit of happiness? You have the constitutional right to freedom of expression and protest but not the right to infringe upon the rights of others. The constitution does not bestow upon you the right of oppression. Sure Devilfish you scream about your "rights" but what about my rights and the rights of the Makah? I buy my hunting , fishing and trapping license every year, abide by the regulations set forth by the DNR and do everything within my power to be a good taxpaying citizen. However my freedom to hunt, trap, and fish is being threatened by people like you who value your rights so much that you'd take mine away. Well for your info I have the same constitutional rights as you. And I'm not allowing you and your ARA friends to ruin my American Dream by imposing your beliefs upon me nor am I going to allow you to take my rights and priveleges way. You can all go to hell as far as I concerned, you ELF, ALF,PETA, Sea Shep and Watsieboy and HSUS. You think you're the only person with rights then you got another think coming.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
22.08.2000

Devilfish: You and your ARA friends put the entire Makah nation at risk by your venomous racist dialogue. You also infringed upon their rights to hunt whales which were acquired by treaty. You also applauded vigilante type actions by ARA factions and the infringement of the rights of the Makah nation.You also put all Indians at risk of being victimized by some insane lunatic that had been inspired and provoked by your racist stereotypical accusations and blatant racism. You applauded the felonious criminal acts of ELF and ALF without any care of personal injury or loss of life to those being attacked by these groups. I did not read the particular post by tiegen that you claim gave out your address nor do I recollect any others that revealed any such information about you or anyone else. I believe that revealing such information would have been a violation of the user agreement with SI and since tiegen still posts there I have reason to believe that what you claim did not in fact occurr. I don't believe that Kieth is the type person who would stalk you or place you under scrutiny and surveillence. My impression of him is one of a spiritual peaceful person who is prepared to protect his family from any outside threats. ELF and ALF cover their faces and do their deeds under the cover of darkness. You have expressed approval of their feats and deeds. The Makah on the other hand did not hide their faces but hunted whale with pride. They have nothing to hide. Kiiaatuk and tiegen are simply letting you know they know who you are. Is that a crime?

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
22.08.2000

Well with the treats by Kieth and his troops, they know what I will do if they come around my house. I do have protection to use, and I will use it.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
21.08.2000

KEITH HUNTER:

Be advised yourself keith. Conducting investigations on people as though you were james bond is very noteworthy, but in all seriousness, you are in need of some help yourself in the mental category, and now i must expose you as the dangerous person you are, and now by your actions of giving out my address to other dangerous people, you have in reality put my family in harms way and this will not go un-noticed in the anti-whaling community. I am a good family man buying a house and living the american dream, and it is my duty to inform you that i have a constitutional right to protest whatever the hell i want..and i have over the years protested many things(nuke plants, old growth clearcuts, and whaling)etc. Now because i am good at using words to express my position and have a knack at pissing people off, you feel compelled to hate me so much that you would see my family put in danger. ALL FOR HAVING AN OPINION. And do not deny your part in having my address put out there, you yourself said you were gathering a dossier on all the posters on Seattle Insider, so there it is. You will be held accountable.You will be investigated.You will feel the pain if anything happens to me, or my family. (LEGALLY SPEAKING, OF COURSE)

WARNING TO ANTI-WHALERS: KEITH HUNTER IS A PARANOID AND DANGEROUS INDIVIDUAL AND WANTS US ALL DEAD.

Unlim2000
Unlim2000@hotmail.com
21.08.2000

Do you remember this one Furtaker?How About This by longjohn, Aug 06, 14:03 How About This by longjohn

You can knock this crap off post haste ........ or I'll give you all the personal and unauthorized information you could ever want ....

Question is, do I start with your personal information Jim ... or Maggies??

And no I'm not bluffing or kidding around here.... don't push or you may not like the results .....

Unlim2000
Unlim2000@hotmail.com
21.08.2000

Don't even think I am by tiegen, Aug 06, 21:45 Don't even think I am by tiegen kidding Jim ******** I have all the personal information anyone will need to find you. For instance your personal address **th Ave **? House number ***** I won't give out the entire information I have but I think you get the picture that I'm not fooling around. I am dead serious. You better believe it. Zip code 98*** hum at least it is different than mine which is small comfort. The above was posted on the SI forum with the * filled out. But of course you don't remember Furtaker. You only remember what you want to.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
21.08.2000

Jim---I have not spent one penny on you. As for posting any information about you, I have posted nothing on any forum that you yourself have not put on the internet.

What I will tell you is that you have become increasingly bizarre in the past few months, along with your buddies here like Phil, and your words are being taken seriously. You have long wanted to be known as a supporter and participant of ODI, SS, the ALF, etc etc etc You openly and actively engaged in one of the most filthy smearing campaigns I have ever seen waged by racists on the internet.

The fact that you have received exactly what you asked for and have that recongition is something you earned and spent an incredible amount of time and energy to promote. I told you in the beginning this was not a game and I was not playing with any of you and I meant that. You were told that repeatedly by many people Jim and on many occassions you were asked and pleaded with to stop and think of where you were placing yourself by your actions.

You are no one's victim here Jim but a victim of your own irresponsible choices and positions you advocate. Just as Erin and Bill Moss have to face the facts that they themselves placed themselves in the exclusionary zone and forcefully attempted injury to the whalers and that it was their actions which caused the Coast Guard response, you too have to understand that it is your own actions which have caused you to be seen and act as you have done. Blaming me for your fanatical views of the world and the people and beings within it does not change the reality of this Jim.

Be advised Jim that I am now in the process of gathering as much lawful information as I can about you from the internet to provide background information to those responsible for protection of the village of Neah Bay, the inhabitants here, and their supporters elsewhere.

Kii yaa tuk (Keith Hunter) P.O. Box 482 Neah Bay, Washington 98357

360-645-3161

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
21.08.2000

Devilfish: never implied you were JRS and already knew you have claimed to be agnostic but that never stopped you from making references to the bible on SI did it? I don't recollect anyone posting portions of your address either. Most info about you came from you. Like your email addy and that you lived in Seattle and worked for a bakery. Go figure. Enough clues there for anyone who may really want to know something about you but most of us weren't really that interested.

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
21.08.2000

You assholes can collect all you want. The law doesn't give a flying rat's ass what you pro whalers say, anything you send them, automatically gets filed in the trash.

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
21.08.2000

Well my call up to the troops went better than I figured.

seawolf was bestowed on me

Russell, Kii and the other pro whalers SCUMBAGS

ehh..Lakefox...
h2so4@hcl.dk
21.08.2000

After reading the meaningless gibberish from Mr. Knutson and others, but especially Mr. Knutson, I no longer wonder why psychiatrists grow fat and wealthy in the US.

What would a wolf be doing at sea anyway ??

Still following the interesting flow of fact and fiction – not to mention: futile flagitious flapdoodle – I have not much to add, since my knowledge of whaling is limited, but my insight in human folly is steadily increasing.

Keep’m up all….

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
21.08.2000

Furtaker:

First, thankyou for the cordial response. It has been a very heated issue, and we both know where we each stand on this. As to biblical references, i have stated that i am agnostic, so i cannot argue on this point. I could try but whats the point, JRS i am not.

The jury is still out on why grays are dying, and killing more because 'we' think their food is gone would be poor science.

And i have never ever said the makah cannot kill whales, only that i wish they wouldn't. Don't you remember me saying this several times?

And overall, i am opposed to killing whales, and want this practice stopped...by everyone.

And if and when this happens i will pack my tent and go to the next issue.

So, tell me furtaker, would you like portions of your home address posted on a public forum?

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
21.08.2000

DEVILFISH: Whales are capable of reproducing and are therefore a renewable resource same as all other creatures that procreate the species. Hunting whales for food is not going to decimate the species as long as it is done by quotas and the Makah were assigned a quota. The Creator does not value one beast over the other including man so man should not elevate a species to a level where there are more valued than any other. Biblically it is written that God knows when a sparrow falls and also that man should have dominion over animals. In the old testament Noah builds an ark and and took a male and female of all species in for the purposes of regeneration and drowned all the rest. Would this be divine animal cruelty and what would ALF, PETA, and HSUS say to God about His work? What do you say? And the Bible is loaded with the stories of animal sacrifice and of feasting as in the case of the prodical son who returned and the fatted calf was slaughtered for him and feast was made celebrating his return. It's rather ludicrous to think that anyone is threatening you or your family. Perhaps your imagination is getting too vivid and far out for you to cope with reality. It's not going to hurt the species for a few to be harvested annually. Afterall an estimated 800 die annually due to low fat reserves aka as starvation. Killing a few for food may just insure their future. Hunting in many areas where natural predators have been found to interfere with rural and urban development has become a necessity. I guess you prefer slow death by starvation preferable to a quick kill by either a trap or a gun.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
21.08.2000

ADAM SAPIEN:

If you feel that way...good for you. I like a person who has the guts to express an opinion so eloquently, don't you?

Now as to whaling, and all the opinions for and against, i appreciate those that can debate their point without all the flames injected, don't you? good. Now that being said, i have expressed my opinions on whaling, and i do believe everyone in the free world knows what that is...but, what i don't appreciate is someone...like yourself perhaps, but i could be wrong, telling me i don't care about my family or myself is walking the fine of a threat. Now you may or may not know Adam Sapien, i have been made a target by over emotional fanatics who CLAIM to support treaty rights i.e. the Makah and their little paragraph that started the blood flowing all over the world, but as a person who does understand the treaty of 1855, it would take an act of congress to change it. Meanwhile, because of my outspoken opinions on whaling it appears i have the ability to irritate many seemingly educated people to the point that they (keith hunter) have spent a sum of money investigating me and have posted some of their findings on another whaling (public) forum, putting my family in harms way. Now, back to my point of not caring about my family...lets put it this way, and i am very serious here..if i see anyone i do not know on my property...well..lets just not disturb ol' jimbo, i know my rights in regards to protecting my family and property. Good day, Adam.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
20.08.2000

ICEBEAR Everything I eat comes from a 5 mile radius of my house. The grocery store is that far. I am a fur trapper and I also a hunter. I don't consider fur as vanity, trapping as cruel nor hunting as barbaric. Furtrapping nor hunting alters the environment. The vegetarian lifestyle places a lot of stress on the environment? Did you know that clothing from fibers such as cotton are treated with pesticides just as crops are trteated with both pesticides and herbicides? Did you know that an estimated 67 million birds die of pesticide exposure in the US every year? And that the average apple still has 4 pesticides even after it's been washed and cored? And that the 1999 residue monitoring program found pesticide residue on 38% of domestic grain products, 29% of fish/shellfish, 60% of fruits, and 29% of vegetables? The number of birds killed by insecticides is far greater than the number of animals taken for fur. So which is the lesser of the two evils? I prefer to continue my way of living as a hunter and trapper.

charronne
icebear@telus.net
20.08.2000

I realize I am speaking here to people who come to this group looking for support for their own point of view, so what I say will all on deaf ears. I will make a couple of points, and then go away. In traditional whaling, as was practiced by peoples of the past, the whales had a fighting chance of survival. They are large, strong, and intelligent. The hunters went in small boats orships, powered by wind or oar, so their speed was limited, the whales could dive and change direction, or destroy the boat. Now, with the giant factory ships with electronic surveilance to hunt whales below the water, track them from the air, speed to be ahead when they surface, and armaments evolved from military technologies, it is hardly the same "man against the sea" or "man against beast" that the ancient stories tell of. Man travels in comfort and safety, even the proud Makah have their traditional canoe towed by pwerful motorboats, the dead whale towed in by motor boat, the coast guard to act as spotter. Gone are the long days of fighting storms, "Nantucket sleigh rides", death-defying courage in the face of adversity. Where is the challenge? The enduring legends are nowhere to be found in this hunt. And what chance has the whale? Hardly a fair competition. I know that even vegetarian diets will place stress on the earth. There are far too many people on earth already, that is why I chose not to add to the congestion. Virtually everything I eat comes from with a 5 mile radius of my house. Most people think I am crazy, as I walk along the street, and see earthworms stranded on the pavement, I return them to the earth. I capture flies, wasps, spiders etc. in my house and return them to the outdoors. The thermostat, even in winter, is never set above 55 F. We don't use airconditioning. I dry my clothes on a clothes line. And while I can accept that some aboriginal people living in certain areas may need to kill to eat, I do not accept the suffering of creatures to satisfy profits, or luxury items for the priviledged few. Diet is a problem for ALL people. The native Americans are not the only ones suffering because of this modern diet, it is killing everyone who is subsisting on it. I know first hand what the diet of many Indian people is like, it is often worse than what white Americans are eating, because the foods are not part of the traditions, and there were no grandmothers to teach them how to use the new foods as the old ones became scarce. Some estimates say 80% of hospital stays and other long term illnesses, by all north americans, are as a result of lifestyle choices. This means getting rid of the white bread, sugared cereal, kraft dinners, hot dogs, booze, cigarettes, and all the other garbage we all eat. And getting out and getting some excercise. That applies to all of us. Adding whale blubber to a diet of Sugar Pops, coke and pizza is not going to bring good health. We all need to eat better quality food. And less of it. No person can exist without having some impact on his surroundings, anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. The ideal is to cause as little damage to Mother Earth as possible, do as little harm to other creatures as possible. If each person works and lives their life with this philosophy in mind, all the world will benefit. And the change in attitude will only come one person at a time, slowly. As my husband says, an avalanche starts with a single pebble. People who advocate activities such as whaling should be sure that before they do, that their own impact on the earth is as small as possible. Heading for the dock in your SUV, with a six pack, chips, and gas can in the back , or roaring across the tundra in the snowmobile crushing anything alive beneath the surface and scaring all the wildlife for miles is hardly "walking softly on Mother Earth". Some suffering in this world is inevitable, it is the way of the world, life ain't always fair. But to cause it without need is both hypocritical and unforgiveable. PS: the anti-whaling painting was created by a full status North American Indian.

Adam Sapien
ads@yahoo.com
20.08.2000

Jim/Devilfish:

Your hateful vitrol speaks to who you are, Jim; listen to yourself. Your rage is consuming you, before our very eyes; you may no longer care for yourself, your name or your family, all of which you further degrade with each posting; but please, keep it to yourself, it is painful to watch. You are left alone with your problems; you won't find further attention here. The makah will continue to whale in the present, and brother Jim, long after you have gone. Accept this or not, you should perhaps focus instead on the legacy you are creating for yourself and your children, and your children's children here, and in other forums: your need to publicly shame yourself speaks of a troubled soul, a hateful mind. You have a problem Jim, denial does not erase the words you have written, and the threats you have made. It is all to your lasting shame, and the shame of your family. Remember this, if nothing else.

furtaker
trapper@charter.net
20.08.2000

So this is where doughie boy ran off to?

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
20.08.2000

JOHN RUSSELL:

And i just kicked your ass. But please, please, it would bother the heck out of me to break your fragile spirit, and to tear down whats left of your self-esteem, because really johnnie, i'm not that bad of a person...really. Friends? thought so. Your to full of hate from what happened to your wife.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
20.08.2000

TO THE COWARDS FROM CERTAIN:

You all know where i live. Come on over for some tea.

But something tells me you won't, you know why? FEAR. And you can be sure i have notified the local cops about your threats to me and my family, all for just having an opinion that you cannot understand. So be it. Cowards.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
20.08.2000

URBAN:

'ADDRESSING THE CONTENT OF YOUR POSTS'??

UH HUH...ok..

there, i addressed them. Anything else?

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
20.08.2000

Devilfish (apparently, Jim)

You're cries of impotent rage are boring, and you seem incapable of addressing the content of my posts; you're a waste of time, and a fine example of the typical anti-Makah protestor. Keep it up: your words are being recorded, archived, and ultimately, delivered to law-makers and officials: in the course of your tantrums, you greatly assist the work of those who wish to highlight the racist, hate-based elements of the anti-Makah position. Good work.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
20.08.2000

To All -

Don't mind Jim Knudtson AKA Devilfish, he just got his ass kicked again at the Seattle Insider Makah haling forum. Being a bit of a masochist and not very bright, it looks like he came over here to get it kicked again ...... sheesh

Well at least the people here can see what kind of morons we at CERTAIN have had to deal with in the last year and a half. As evidenced by the violent threats against American Indian, alignment by SSCS and other orgs with long knon anti-Indian racist politicians like Metcalf and Gorton, and the recent moronic proposal by the Washington State Republicans, it's not hard to figure out why these people keep getting accused of being racists ..... it's obvious.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
20.08.2000

URBAN:

You pal are a liar. But have a nice day anyway.

meme noir
mns@hotmail.com
20.08.2000

Ladies and gentlemen, the below was posted by one Jim Knudtson: one of Washington State's tragic stories...mental illness, no medication; Godspeed, Jim...may you find the help you need.

meme noir
mns@hotmail.com
20.08.2000

Ladies and gentlemen, the below was posted by one Jim Knudtson: one of Washington State's tragic stories...mental illness, no medication; Godspeed, Jim...may you find the help you need.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
20.08.2000

STOP KILLING WHALES.

And this is for all you putrid phony "humanatarian" types, who hide behind your false agenda of "brotherhood" to promote the MURDER of whales. You do not fool anyone, at least anyone with a sense of compassion for innocent beings who do not stand to profit from killing whales, and you know who you are(john russell, kiiyatuk, j. spaulding, debbie moran, and all the other disgusting folks who troll the forums chasing after white people. Again..this is for you... lowlifes:

You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. As we say in Texas, I'll bet you couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you.

You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.

You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.

I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell?

Try to edit your responses of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.

You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.

You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.

And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?

You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile, one-handed, slack-jawed, drooling, meatslapper.

On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go.

You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oik artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You craven dewberry pisshead cockup pratting naff. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed flirt-gill.

You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away.

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid, so stupid it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know.

I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh.

The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. I have snipped away most of your of whay you wrote, because, well... it didn't really say anything. Your attempt at constructing a creative flame was pitiful. I mean, really, stringing together a bunch of insults among a load of babbling was hardly effective... Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.

I expect no christmas cards from any of you. And keith hunter...fuck you.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
20.08.2000

Charrone

I think you have missed my point: we all must eat something, and when we do, something dies. I hate to break it to you, Charrone, but with every breath you take, and no matter how softly you might walk, numerous organisms perish in your wake; the bulk of nature is invisible to us. Human beings are a part of this web of life too, and within it, we become a part of that cycle of life feeding life that you outline in your post. I think you are seriously mistaken, however, if you believe that a vegetarian diet places you in a higher ethical/ecological/spiritual place: you grow some of your own food...good. Do you grow all of it? What you do not comes to you via a system of agriculture which has displaced animals; fossil fuel burning trucks to bring it to warehouse; more fuels burned to bring it to your grocer...even organic methods, though sustaining to the soil, displace animals in the process of creating farmland (one can practice agro-forestry, but precious few do) and you, growing some of your own food, you are in a minority: most rely solely on industry to deliver their ethically "pure" vegetables to them. Pound for pound, with all of these factors considered, the daily diet of a single western vegetarian, ecologically speaking, does a far greater degree of damage to the fragile balance of nature than does the respectful, careful, and sustainable harvest of a cetacean. In norway, where few vegetables grow, the ecological cost of delivering outside foods would be huge: the ecological cost of sustainable harvesting the abundant Minke whale stocks is much less. To peoples such as the Makah and Nuu-chah-nulth, centuries of dependence on marine mammal oil has altered them: their very physiology, their very well-being, depends on its presence in their diets. Speak with them about this: it is the least you could do. Though you seem not able to see it, your posts clearly indicate that you place a higher value on cetaceans: to you, they are "especially special"...and, conveniently, the foods (read:beings) you consume, well, they are not "special" in the same way...notice the convenience of your distinctions? As connected as you might feel with the web of life, you remain detached so long as you place humanity outside of its cycles, so long as you fail to recognize the essential harmony a sustainable, respectful whale hunt brings; that any sustainable, respectful hunt brings. Your story of the dolphins, it is interesting: it is also a very partial view of dolphin-nature; they are equally known for drowning humans, playing them to death: of what has been characterized as "gang-rape" by biologists; of attacking harbour porpoises in packs, biting off choice pieces...to base ones' view of nature, and its order from the limited world of one's individual perception and experience is a mistake: a mistake you seem to make. You also make a mistake when you insinuate that I am a whaler: how presumptious of you! I am among other things, an organic farmer, a practitioner of what is called permaculture. My sole concern is to walk and live in balance as best I can. I have no particular stake in the resumption or cessation of whaling: however, I do know something of the Nuu-chah-nulth/Makah way of being, and in that way, I see a way of living within the limits of a local ecology; and, I see a very few narrow-minded individuals who feel that their partial, hierarchical view of nature is somehow more "evolved" than this way of being developed over millenia; and I can't help but notice that we have seen this before: I had hoped we were past it. But, as you seem to attest, not all of us are.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
20.08.2000

Charrone--

Just out of curiosity's sake, is this the same "icebear" that is now selling antiwhaling art? Are you the same lady on the SWK list who has justified all the racism on that list?

Kii yaa tuk

charronne
icebear@telus.net
20.08.2000

I did not say that whales should be preserved to profit mankind. I said whales are beings with equal worth, or perhaps more worth to the ocean and our Earth than man. And if man is wise enough to learn from them instead of destroying them, the Earth would be a better place as a result. Yes, the orca is a hunter, but his kills benefit the ocean, just as the lions and tigers help feed the weaker creatures in the jungle. What is left after the orcas feed remains to feed hundreds or thousands of others. They do not kill for political power, or to decorate their bodies with the remains of others, or to improve their social status. They kill only to feed themselves and their families. For isolated communities to kill a whale to feed a village for a long time is a very diferent thing from killing a whale to provide luxury tidbits for a priviledged few. The Chuktoka killing a whale to feed their families, and using every part of the whale as part of their daily life is not the same as killing the gray whales to sell to farmers to feed foxes on farms that will live their lives in little cages and die to make luxury items for rich people. As a decendent of a people that have whaled and travelled the oceans when most of the world's population still thought it was flat, I feel; the same connection to these animals as any of you. It is not necessary to kill to feel kinship. when my boat at sea in the Atlantic was struck and damaged in the darkness by a freighter far out in the Atlantic, and we were limping around the edge of a hurricane trying to get to safe harbour, we were terrified, unsure if we would ever see land. the dolphins came and swam beside us a mother brought her new baby and lifted it out of the water on her flipper so we could see it. We banged on our hull, and they lifted their heads and looked at us, and then played, and looked at us again. It was as if they were telling us not to worry. they communicated a great feeling of peace and security to every person on board, even our captain. He had always disliked dolphins because he viewed them as competitors for fading fish stocks. Anytime we couldn't see the dolphins, and we started feeling nervous, we thumped on the hull, and they returned to reassure us. they stayed near all the way to harbour's entrance. The captain said as he went ashore that no person on any boat he had charge of would ever be allowed to harm dolphins or whales. My husband and I are 99% vegetarian. I grow much of my own food, or purchase from local organic farms. My backyard is host to deer, rabbits,racoons, mice, birds, and hundreds of flying, hopping and crawlingall of whom come to the feed and water I put out to replace what humans have depleted in the immediate area. there are no pesticides, no bugs, slugs or other critters are harmed at my home, whether they are inside or out. I conserve water, compost, recycle, and we walk or bike instead of drive whenever possible. We do our best at all times to walk softly on Mother Earth. Do not try and tell me that I (or my husband) can have no connection with Mother Earth or her creatures without killing them!

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
19.08.2000

Michael, Charrone:

Which cetaceans are closest to your consciousness? The Minke whales who devour helpless fish (yep, you guessed it...conscious creatures with spirits too)? The transient killer whales who leap upon mother and calf alike, biting out the belly and tongue, leaving the rest to rot (if whales are not “designed” as prey, how do you explain the existence of transient killer whales?? Or do you merely connect with those imagined, airbrushed whales, always smiling, hovering somewhere in the back of your mind, somewhere, apparently, close to where you keep your abundant supply of anger. Take a walk, for pete's sake; go out to your vegetable garden, if you even have one, and tell me that there is more wonder in a whale than in a growing plant, or the complicated balance of birds, bugs, slugs, and worms. And if by chance you should manage at last to see that EVERYTHING is wondrous, full of spirit, and worthy of respect, do you suppose you'll still eat supper tonight?

ALL life is sacred: together, every part of this planet interconnects to form the "meta-mind", or, as some like to put it, Gaia. ALL life is conscious: don't believe for a moment that your shallow, speciesist prejudice changes this essential fact. When you eat a plant, something dies at your hand. Something alive: something that is a part of this web of life. Something that has a spirit. The same with whales: the same with cockroaches. So please, spare us the holier-than-though morality play; it is clear from your posts that you are ill equipped to understand the notion of interconnectedness.

Nonetheless, you cannot be blamed for this: you're a product of a mindset that puts one thing before another, that allows you to hide behind false distinctions to ease your conscience. And no one will seek to make you do things differently: if you choose, you may continue on, claiming a higher morality. But you will be lying to yourself, and ultimately, in perpetuating an unbalanced view of nature,doing more to hasten the demise of the fragile planetary ecology than you think. You ultimately place value in whales, because, in your words, they are here to "assist humans in their climb up the evolutionary ladder"; in other words, you place a higher value on whales primarily because of their utility to humanity; because they provide something you feel we need. You will thus be pleased to learn that they also provide fatty acids to address the specific needs of people who have co-evolved with them for centuries. How wonderful that a single whale will feed an entire community, and a single family for a season. How wonderful that among some whaling cultures, the whale will come in a dream, offering itself as a gift; The yupik eskimo of Chukotka, in the Siberian arctic have a saying: "when the bowhead is brought in, peace and harmony also come to the village". Ridicule these beliefs, these experiences? You might, yet in the same breath, you forward contentious, speculative views on the true nature of whales yourself, without the backing of several thousand years experience. Why not come back and lecture the Makah in, say, the year 8,000; or send your ancestors to do so…at that point, your knowledge of whales might approach that of those you oppose; want to know the true nature of whales? Can’t be done…it is inherently unknowable. Want to know as much of it as you can? Put aside your arrogance, and take some time to listen to those who know them best. You might even learn something. Bottom line: You cannot understand the importance of whales to such people. Do not presume to sit in judgement of traditions you know nothing of. Do not be so arrogant as to lecture peoples with millenia of direct ecological, spiritual and essential co-existence with whales on the topic of their 'true nature'. You are right about one thing; whales are incredible, and worthy of our respect. They are also essential to a great many traditional diets; you should respect these equally, and avoid the mistakes of your ancestors. And to Seawolf (phil) and Devilfish (aka Jim Knudtson)…Though I’m sure that giving yourselves cute little names has elevated your self-esteem and made you feel important, rest assured, as meme noir has indicated, that your posts are read purely for amusement.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
19.08.2000

Micheal Alvarez-Toye

I am presuming from what you have written that you personally have secured a written "treaty" for the taking of the lives which you eat? How about the wildlife that was displaced from the place you dwell? Do you have a signed agreement from those living beings as well? Or do you, as the other ARAs have done, grant personal immunity to yourselves based upon your own judgement of which "life" you value and which life you deem acceptable to exist upon which is excluded from your own positions and logic?

I would be most interested in seeing your written agreements you have obtained for the taking of life which allows you and your family to survive.

Kii yaa tuk

Michael Alvarez-Toye
malvareztoye@hotmail.com
19.08.2000

The issue isn't one regarding racism for trying to stop the murder of innocent lives, nor is it one of cultural elitism, of nations trying to prevent other nations of living according to their cultural traditions and values. It is simply an issue of protecting the innocent from the brutal assault on their lives and customs. You who whale are upset because there are those who dare to intrude upon your way of life, yet that is exactly what you are doing to others. Hypocrisy on your part? Without a doubt. Show us a treaty or agreement where it includes ANY input from those you are preying upon, and we will leave you alone; any other kind of agreement or treaty is merely that between 2(or more) groups of humans, and is therefore invalid, since it presupposes that animals exist strictly for our adornment, usage, etc., a claim that is patently false and criminally, ethically irresponsible. Ethnic cleansing is also legally sanctioned in certain nations and cultures, but it doesn't make it right, or a non-criminal action in the eyes of the world.

Welcome to the REAL world, one where all lives have equal validity and claim to existence.

Michael Alvarez-Toye
malvareztoye@hotmail.com
19.08.2000

The issue isn't one regarding racism for trying to stop the murder of innocent lives, nor is it one of cultural elitism, of nations trying to prevent other nations of living according to their cultural traditions and values. It is simply an issue of protecting the innocent from the brutal assault on their lives and customs. You who whale are upset because there are those who dare to intrude upon your way of life, yet that is exactly what you are doing to others. Hypocrisy on your part? Without a doubt. Show us a treaty or agreement where it includes ANY input from those you are preying upon, and we will leave you alone; any other kind of agreement or treaty is merely that between 2(or more) groups of humans, and is therefore invalid, since it presupposes that animals exist strictly for our adornment, usage, etc., a claim that is patently false and criminally, ethically irresponsible. Ethnic cleansing is also legally sanctioned in certain nations and cultures, but it doesn't make it right, or a non-criminal action in the eyes of the world.

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
19.08.2000

MEME NOIR:

Spoken like a true dumbass, hellbent on destroying the innocent sentient beings that inhabit the oceans all for the selfish ideology of making a quick buck at the expense of cetaceans.

I pray for your soul...if you have one....pagan.

charronne
icebear@telus.net
19.08.2000

have been reading the comments, much bluster, some facts, lot of closed minds. The Makah focus on treaty rights tells me that their main interest in whaling is political. The Makah power brokers have found a way to totally irritate the rest of American society, and they are going to use it to its fullest. If whales have to die so that they can feel powerful, so be it. If establishing the treaty right was the sole purpose of the hunt, the death of one whale would have been sufficent sacrifice. They could now be honourable and say we have confirmed our right to hunt, but as we don't need it for subsistance, we will kill no more. Certain animals were designed by nature as prey animals; they have no strong or lasting family ties, they have no notion of long term clan loyalties, understanding of life and death. Whales and dolphins make visible efforts to communicate with man, have a definite language (which is no less real just because humans are too stupid to understand it). I believe that when man matures beyond his egocentric belief that he is the only superior species and that all other creatures and the entire earth are there to supply and amuse him, he will come to understand that the whales and dolphins are our marine counterparts, and they have much to teach us about the ocean and living in harmony with our environment. Remember the passenger pigeon was once so numerous that it could take an entire day for a single flock to pass. Conventional wisdom of the time was that no matter how they were hunted, there were so many that there was no possiblity of their destruction. They thought the same about the bison, fortunately someone smartened up in time. 200 years ago, many believed, and produced "scientific" evidence to proove that Africans were not human, but some kind of primitive relation only a step away from beasts. So having so-called "experts" denigrate whale and dolphin intelligence because it difers from our understanding of IQ measurements, or assure us that a species cannot be threatened by hunting because there seem to be lots of them at the moment does not give me any feeling of comfort or confidence.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
19.08.2000

There is a hell of a difference between whales and cows, as there aren't that many whales. I call 26,000 gray whales damn near extinct, where as there are millions upon millions of cows. that's the difference.

Also there is no need to show you proof the Makah are in it for money, you've seen the prooftime and time again. As you know in 1995-96 Japan made a deal with the Makah to buy the whalemeat from the indians. If you wan't different proof other than what you have seen, the onus is on you go get off your lazy ass and go get it. It's not my job to get it for you.

Meanwhile, sink the whaling ships

No go smoke some crack, drughead

meme noir
nmn@hotmail.com
19.08.2000

Devilfish:

Poor angst ridden soul; spare us all the grade school poetry...; perhaps you and seadork could hook up, and with the enormous power of your two mighty minds, come up with a coherent sentence or two...if it comes to pass that we at long last may communicate directly with whales, I hope they don't have the misfortune of speaking with either of you: together, you are proof positive that two half-wits do not a single wit make. So, keep churning out your moronic sludge: nobody cares.-

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
19.08.2000

Well johnnie, the Makah DO have a treaty right to MURDER whales and that is hard to dispute, BUT, now we have in this time period of the new century people who cannot, and will not tolerate murdering whales. Simple. Same goes for Norwegians (my ancestry) and Japanese. Simple. My right to be against whaling is my right, and to use racism and Watson bashing as your ONLY argument against people (who btw are a diverse group of HUMANS) against whaling only weakens you and your agenda, whatever that is.

The battle continues. Who will win?

Only the whales can lose, for they are benign, and do not understand mans greed.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
19.08.2000

I get it Seadork, the Makah get to only kill and eat the animals you say or don't give a damn about ..... doesn't matter if the food YOU SAY they can eat is bad for them. And what makes a whale any better or any worse than a cow or a pig? Not a damn thing, so why do YOU get to be the one who decides which animals and plants are worthy and the rest can be maginalized as not worthy because YOU don't like them? You ant to do something real for the whales then go after the ones who are really harmful to them, the mass polluters, the politicians like Metcalf and Gorton who have destroyed their food sources ... or are you too damn cowardly to pick on a powerful group of people and prefer a small tribe like the Makah who are easy pickings (Or so you thought, found out otherwise huh?) because fo their small size and no tangible political clout, all they have is a Constitutionally GUARANTEED treaty hich you ould have broken illegally in a heartbeat. How can ANY country believe a thing the US says and stands for if they continually break their word and treaties? (And the Makah treaty predates and takes precedence over the IWC convention)

Sheesh not only are you an idiot you are a hypocrite to boot ......

And the Makah have a VALID TREATY that says they can hunt whales and THAT is why CERTAIN defends them.... Show me ANY proof that we are in this for the money, show ANY proof that ANYONE at CERTAIN has made any money from whaling.

SHOW ME THE PROOF!!!

DEVILFISH
redball46@aol.com
19.08.2000

Atrocities Made every day Religiously

Their sins They hide Can never disguise

Blood stained hands Blood stained times Blood stained deeds Blood stained lies

They wage their wars Such profiteers Will nail us all

Their crimes Concealed Despicably reveal

Blood stained hands Blood stained times Blood stained weapons Blood stained lies

They fire at will Intent to kill They have no conscience They have no conscience

Ethnic cleansing nothing more! Blood of nations blood of war

Turn blind eyes From all your crimes You bare our souls Show no remorse You cannot wash The bloodstains off

They turn their backs While others Commit grisly acts

We're scared For life By ocean rapists

Blood stained hands Blood stained times Blood stained weapons Blood stained crimes Blood stained lands Blood stained minds Blood stained deeds Blood stained lies

And while such predators Stalk this earth Disguised as saints They kill our faith

Obsessed by greed Lying through their teeth They cannot wash The blood stains off

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
19.08.2000

I just checked out the guestbook thru 1999.

2 corrections have to be noted.

Jason:

Sea Shepherd does have a bulliten board goto the SSCS chatrom at the Galley and use the pulldown menus, you will find Sea Shepherd board room there.

Kii,

The ship was sabotaged in 1999 for a fact. KIRO TV had it on the news.

Gots to correct you guys.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
19.08.2000

You say the Makah are a law-abiding people? Well check out the Makahs who were arrested for taking 1000 Salman up in Canada illegally. Their catch was seized, and they face $5,000 fines each. It was in one of the Seattle or Everett papers

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
19.08.2000

As usual Russell is fulla shit. CERTAIN would not be backing a Makah whale hunt if they had not supported it and that is a fact. so I say again, your agenda is killing whales for money.

Your "facts" saying that the Makah have a subsistance need is bullshit, they can go to Safeway and get their meat like we have to do. The Makah are not a starving people as you claim. There are full sized grocery stores in Neah Bay so there s no need for the Makah to kill a whale

SINK THEIR GODDAMN WHALING BOATS That's the only thing they understand.

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
18.08.2000

About that 13th-time's-a-charm Paul Watson movie?

Really excellently done website www.oceanwarrior.com

But it hasn't been updated since July 26...

How do you say "moribund" in Dutch?

How do you make a true movie about a false person?

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
16.08.2000

Wrong again Seadork, we are an organization formed to protect treaty and American Indian rights, NOT a pro-whailing organization. If the Makah did not have a valid treaty then you could make that claim but the Makah DO have a valid treaty under both international and domestic law, like it or not. Be specific in your claims about any untruth you believe we have told and I will personally provide all backing evidence and documentation to prove we are indeed telling the truth. Unlike Cappy Paul I back up everything I say with facts and documentation as anyone who has visited our website can see for themselves. You and yours believe the ends justify the means and will tell any lie to get your intended results while we on the other hand believe that the destination is secondary, it's the path you take that is important and honor and integrity are the most important things. NO ONE from CERTAIN has made even a single cent on whaling or defending the Makah's valid treaty rights, nor have we solicited (more like beg in the ARA's case) money from anyone. In fact nearly all of us on the board have spent money out of our own pockets and have given generously of our personal time with no expectation of any reward other than that which comes from successfully defending treaties and indigenous human rights. In YOUR world of "money talks" I really don't expect you to understand that ....

Speaking of lies and BS ..... In regards to the alleged illegality of the Faroe hunt did Watson ever come through on his promise to "have a lawyer prepare a brief to demonstrate the international illegalities of this hunt. When I have it in hand I will send it on to you."??? Or is this just *another* example of lies and BS from the reigning king of lies and BS?

C'mon Watson your credibility is on the line yet again .....

SHOW ME THE PROOF !!!!

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
16.08.2000

WARNING:

Anything that CERTAIN puts out is not to be taken for gospel and not to be believed. What they say is not fact, but fiction.

Kii says that Sea Shepherd lies all the time, why should CERTAIN be believed. they have an agenda which is to kill whales.

The Makah Tribe is going to be held responsible for years for the bringing back of full scale commercial whaling.

All this is designed to make money and nothing more. Their reason of feeding their people's s pure contrived bullshit.

Money talks so whales die.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
16.08.2000

Bruce:

-Please write to the IWC, and ask them for a breakdown of the scientific information Japan has provided through the scientific whaling program (a program, incidentally, enacted by the IWC). I think, given your claims that the science is a sham, you will be surprised. That is if you are interested in the facts of the matter. -I am more knowledgable about the Treaty of Waitangi and the Maori traditions than you think. The "controversy" surrounding this treaty is not much different from the "controversies" surrounding treaties throughout the colonized world: settlers, their descendants, and other recent arrivals to the land who do not understand native lifeways proclaiming what native people do and do not "need" to do. When one hears an 18 year old, with an expressed lack of knowledge on indigenous affairs, say "don't even get me started on Maori...", one wonders whose point of view you are parroting. Have you spoken with maori representatives? Have you sat down with Maori elders? Until you have, you are not equipped to speak of such matters. It is quite clear that you are fixated on the Japanese whalers: I do not share this fixation, and as already mentioned, am quite bored by now with "japan, japan, japan...". You say you speak often on whaling: I hope you make it clear in your speeches, as you have here, that you know little or nothing about whaling in the rest of the world. -Demonstrating instances of greed hardly makes a case for a blanket condemnation of a practice. There are numerous instances of Greenpeace office managers blowing the day's donations on cocaine; a cursory examination of the convuluted means by which Sea Shepherd transfers ownership of it's vessels is cause for suspicion: does this mean that the environmental movement as a whole is corrupt, self-serving, and dishonest? Of course not. Your going to have to provide more evidence than you have if you hope to make a case worth hearing. Perhaps if you were to cast aside, for a time, your extensive preconceptions, and dedicate more time to research, you would present stronger, logical arguments; to this point, you have done things the other way around: making claims, then later, trying to plug in whatever evidence you can find. This has resulted in a general weakening of your position. I pointed this out before, but you seem to have missed it. -Bruce, though your replies are lengthy, you have thus far failed to reply to the bulk of the points I have made, and a number of specific questions I have posed to you. Indeed, whatever I pose to you, you seem to reply with, again, japan, japan, japan... nonetheless, I have made every effort to address each of your points. I would ask that you do the same; if you are unable to do so, you will have my kindest regards, as further effort to have a dialogue with you would be a waste of time. -Time of death of the gray whale taken by the Makah: 6 minutes. It would have been quicker, but protest boats decided that getting between the harpooned whale and the rifleman would be a great way to get on television. They prolonged the whale's death by a good two minutes, in the name of publicity.

I applaud you, Bruce, for taking your passion for whales and sharing it with the world. But I would caution that your research on the topic of whaling is weak, and your facts are confused. Caution is needed, lest your passion for cetaceans become a kind of hatred for peoples who subsist on them; people, incidentally, who know them in ways you do not understand; people who have co-existed with them for millenia. People who will be whaling long after you (and I) are gone.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
15.08.2000

Bruce---

My point was that just because Paul Watson opposes the Faroese or Norwegians does not mean that he is not a racist when it comes to how he deals with non-white cultures or Peoples. I addressed that post to Bradley, and would ask you the same things. Please go to the CERTAIN website http://www.users.uswest.net/~certainorg/ read what is there, and then we will have a beginning point of discussion about the racism involved in some of the antiwhaling movement, all of which by the way is perfectly acceptable, solicitated, and supported by Watson and the SS.

Kii yaa tuk

P.S. Most of what you just posted would be more appropriately in response to what urban posted and not to me.

Leo Causey
leflora@vxinet.com
15.08.2000

I used 'Derabus' (Gray Wolf) as a subject and got here. It is apparent that something has gone amuck. I ain't interested in whales.

mark
valencia@fsmail.net
15.08.2000

send info please

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
15.08.2000

Kii,

("what, exactly, is your point"?)

That although whaling could be carried out at a sustainable level, Man's tendency to exploit the marine environment is evident throughout history - to the present day.

You meantioned some time ago that the market for whale meat was limited and this meant that there would never be a return to the full-scale commercial whaling operations of the first half of last century. I have pondered over this for quite some time and I give you credit for quite a good point. Indeed the development of technology has meant that many whale products are no longer needed. Japan (or Norway) no longer kill whales for candles, or oil, or soap, or pet food - such as was the case last century. Hence the market for whale products is now practically non-existant. Yet meat still continues to drive the killing.

You say the the small and "limited market" will mean that we will never see the return of large, full-scale commercial whaling.

And that greed is no longer an element that will see the exploitation of whales.

I would disagree with this and point to the proven existance of PIRATE WHALERS. Whalers that have no regard for conservation - killing any species that they come across, at any age.

A well known practice of whalers was to kill the calf, if a mother was sighted with one. Although this practice was banned by the IWC. Why? Because whales are incredibly maternal. The whalers knew full well that a mother would not abandon her dying calf. Once the calf was dead, the mother was targeted and killed. This is the meantality of pirate whalers.

As long as they get their money, at whatever environmental expense.

This proves my point of greed at the expense of the environment.

Otherwise pirate whalers would not exist.

"You accept that some cultures kill whales, while advocating that others do not (specifically, the Japanese). Why the specific distinction?"

The Japanese kill whales in the name of "science" - they kill the whales, sell the meat to various establishments within their own borders, and make money from it. Norway kill whales, sell the meat to various establishments within their own borders, and make money from it - and yet Norway refers to their whaling as "commercial". There is little difference here except a few tissue samples and maybe the examination of the stomach. But it is known the world wide - that Japan kill whales for money and that science has little to do with it.

"...ethically speaking, which is best, an animal living free and wild until the brief moment of death (the 12 minute kill you report was extremely long, from what I know; it is not typical), or an animal which is from birth bred to be slaughtered? For the cow, the pig, and the battery chicken, life would seem to be a kind of suffering, by which the few moments of a whale's sudden death seem minor indeed."

I have a very limited knowledge on the raising over various farm animals. But I have not eated pork in over 2 years in protest of battery pigs. The same with chicken (although battery chickens are somewhat of a rarity here).

And you seem to think that 12 minutes for the death of a Minke Whale is an usually long time. Wrong. While I do not have the each details on me (I do have the project and I will post it when I find it at my ex-girlfriends house), the 12 minute time of death is close to average. I would doubt that 12 minutes would be deemed "sudden" by anyone. How would you like to have a grenade explode in your back, sending iron fragments throughout your internal organs, then thrash helplessly for 12 minutes will you await your final execution. I doubt, while splashing about in your own blood, that you would refer to your own death as sudden.

And even when you look back to the last century. The mammoth Blue Whales - in my opinion one of the most majestic creatures to grace this planet, when harpooned, could take up to 2 hours to die.

"And one final thing: you will find that the world's whaling peoples whale to feed themselves, and their communities:"

Japan does not kill whales to feed their tiny costal villages. They kill whales to feed wealthy buinessmen who consume whale meat in trendy eating establishments. Japan does not need to continue whaling to support its people. It is hardly a dependant source of protein. You can't tell me that if by some stroke of God - Japan ceased all whaling activities, that Japan would disendergrate into chaos because people would go starving. I accept that in some cultures, whaling is that important. The eskimo's for example. Unable to grow crops, the RELY on the meat they gain from killing their one or two whales a year. That is vastly different to Japan killing 400 Minke Whales, 50 Bryde's Whales and 10 Sperm Whales - given that the last investigation into Japanese eating habits (conducted in 1985) showed that whale meat comprised of just "0.017 per cent of total consumption of marine products."* It is interesting to note that this is before the 1986 moratorium and before 1987 when the moratorium was finally esablished.

"Whale meat is not easy to come by in supermarkets even in Tokyo and is far from being a staple in the typical Japanese home".*

" and I would like to shift this discussion to them, and away from japan this, japan that...and ask, Do you oppose a people's basic right to sustenance and nutrition, if those people classify whales as 'food'? And if so, why??"

I am not knowledgeable in this field so I will not debate on it. I know that for a few tribes, whale meat is necesary for their survival (i.e - NOT Japan).

"There is no humane way to kill anything Bruce...shall we not eat, then? Aversion to the method cannot be the basis for effective opposition: it makes a weak case for ceasing a practice. However, Bruce, should the Japanese, or any other cetacean harvest become unsustainable, wasteful, or in the service of industry, and not to feed a people, I would oppose it. But until that point, what's the problem?"

Japan does not kill whales to feed a starving nation. The popularity for whale meat reached its peak shortly after WWII simply as a realitively cheap source of protein. This is long before Japan killed Minke Whales.

"The popularity of eating whale meat (in Japan) has waxed and waned over the years, peaking as a prime source of protein in the post-World War II era."**

"You seem to have an impressive academic, and perhaps personal, knowledge of whales;"

My collection of whale knowledge begun from the time I could read. I know of no other 18 year old who has such an interest or depth of knowledge into whales. I have done countless school projects and speeches on whales and whaling.

" Have you explored the traditional knowledge of whaling peoples, to augment and expand this knowledge??"

Not as much as you have - hence why I am not debating it.

" Take time to explore the whaling traditions of the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples of British Columbia, the Maori knowledge of cetaceans, and yes, even the Japanese...when you speak with whalers, and whaling peoples, and bypass the orgs., lobbyists, and celebrities in the way, you will be most enlightened, and will understand whales in a way you have perhaps not yet considered. Good Luck"

Don't get me started on the Maori. Although you are no doubt knowledgeable with many native tribes throughout the world, you have no idea of the conroversy surrounding whales and the local Iwi here in New Zealand - and it all realates back to the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840, which is another huge debate all to itself.

Regards,

* From "Japan Go Against Tide Over Whaling" - Published August 4 2000, this article can be viewed at http://www.ft.com

** From "Japan Begins Hunt" - published August 1 2000, this article can be viewed at http://www.abcnews.com

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
13.08.2000

John, you need to get your facts straight. I never said Means was conviocted of the charges, but he did go to jail for a short time I spose before the trial. All defendents do that before they bail out, if Means did so bail out of jail..

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
13.08.2000

Now we have 38,000 acres burned up already, and a fire truck got engulfed completely in flames killing one firefighter and seriously injuring another. Folks we got fires burning all over the western United States, the worst fire season in 70 years.

Even up at Neah Bay, watch things there to see it don't go up either. Lightning has caused most all of the fires. Hope things go well for all in this. What a nightmare.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
13.08.2000

Ki:

If all that's true, and nothing disputes it, that would be a pretty slimey thing for him to do. And it can't even be explained away by 'we're just trying to save our brother whales.'It's only false, self agrandizing.

It's a shame.

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
12.08.2000

We tracked down 1973 reports by Bob Hunter in the VAncouver Sun, as Paul Watson suggested.

At that time, Paul was claiming to be a Canadian Indian. He also fabricated the story that the FBI had seized an aircraft full of weapons which landed on the highway outside Wounded Knee. This never happened.

Paul has claimed that he is pictured in the book "Voices of Wounded Knee". Proven false.

Paul has claimed that he was inducted into the Oglala Lakota Tribe. Proven false.

Paul has claimed that Russell Means remembers him from Wounded Knee. Proven false.

I consider it racist to claim Indian honors which were never earned to justify Paul's attack on the sovereignty of the Makah, another Indian tribe.

If the movie is such a reality, how come the movie project has failed 12 times before? How come they are still advertising for (sucker) investors?

The movie "The Great Imposter" has already been made. That would be a more fitting title for a movie about Paul Watson, phony Indian, phony Indian hero, phony environmentalist.

More later....

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Bradley---Rather than go into a book about Paul Watson and the racism of some of the antiwhaling movement I would refer you as a beginning to the url that John Russel posted below. If you have further questions after reading that we would have a beginning point of reference to speak from.

As for the illusion that a person is not a racist if they object to something from their own race I can only say that I was raised in the South when school segregation was being ended. I grew up knowing many KKK members so I am going to try and draw an analogy between that and what you present here.

Few people would say that the KKK is not racist, but the fact that KKK members hung three white kids in Mississippi did not mean that the KKK was not racist. To say that Watson's attack upon the indigenous people of the Faroe Islands is proof that Watson does not engage in racist activities and gathers support, and lends support, to racist individuals and organizations follows along the same line.

I am sure if you approach your question seeking answers with an open mind you will learn of the racist components of the antiwhaling movement and how racism became a core issue in this matter.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Sheena want a cracker? You do such an excellent job as a parrot I am wondering if you are sitting in a cage speaking into a voice program that does your typing for you. You have presented absolutely nothing that does not come from Watson or his organization themselves. Independant research Sheena---think for yourself Sheena--or is that allowed for SS supporters?

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
12.08.2000

I'm seeking to understand how racism became such a prominent feature in the debate about whaling. I have always thought that the anti-whaling movement was about protecting whales from whomever was doing them harm. The Sea Shepherds latest campagn in the Faeros should have made that patently clear. The focus of that protest was directed squarely at white Europeans, and the SSCS had absolutely no inhibition from denouncing them and their so-called tradition. To my knowledge the charge of racism was never leveled at the SSCS for their objections to the cultural/traditional event refered to as the grind. The SSCS presented the very same line of objections used in all other anti-whaling campagns, yet the Faeroese did not have the 'option' of using racism as a defense.

SheenaLake
SheenaLahe@aol.com
12.08.2000

Kii ya Tuk - you have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about. The Ocean Warrior movie is not some small Dutch production. I looked into it. The USA distributor is Paramount. The International distributor is Disney. The film is being produced by Greenlight Kingsborough Productions of Canada and Daniel Films of the Netherlands. Casting includes James Marsden, Rutger Haur, Jon Voight, Martin Sheen, Jurgen Procknow, Milla Jovavich, Victor Low, Kim Van Kooten etc. The budget is $50-60 million. The same producers gave us Bethune, White Fang, To Walk with Lions etc. Funding comes from Dutch investors, the Canadian government and Distribution deals. The film is scheduled to open in 2400 theaters in the USA in February 2002. It isn't a small movie Kii ya Tuk despite your desire to deny the truth. Your irrational hatred of Paul Watson will having you denying 2 and 2 is 4, if Watson says 4 is the answer. What is the root of your hatred Kii ya Tuk. Did Paul Watson do something that personally upset you? I suspect there is some agenda here that has nothing to do with the truth. Is your life so shallow that you have nothing better to do than to investigate and attack a man that TIME magazine called one of the environmental heros of the 20th Century in their recent Earth Day edition. Paul Watson is not a coward for not responding to your hate motivated attacks. He simply does not have the time for your nonsense.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
12.08.2000

Your ignorance of yet another subject is showing yet again Seawolf. Means didn't go to jail over Wounded Knee he was acquitted. Carter Camp DID go to jail over Wounded Knee and as far as I know he was the only one of the AIM leadership that did. Carter BTW was the one that led the the People who intially took over Wounded Knee and was in charge of security so the rest could get in. Neither he nor Means has ANY recollection of Watson. At Wounded Knee the official count was "183 Oglalas, 189 other Indians, and only 34 non-Indians. (Note: some of these were Black and Hispanic leaving even a fewer number of actual Whites there) Those prohibited included 'freaks, lazies, pot smokers, and drinkers.' A number of hangers on fit the above categories were expelled and, although many people of assorted backgrounds flocked to the area, only a handful were allowed to enter." (Wounded Knee II,Rolland Dewing Page 86)

Given this Watson would have stuck out like a sore thumb, and they obviously checked EVERYBODY out real well, especially non-Indians, so why does NO one any memory of his being there? The are lots of pictures, some which Watson claims he is in. So why no specific info telling us which picture he is in?

Go to this page on our website and towards the bottom of the page you will see " PAUL WATSON UPDATE" http://www.users.uswest.net/~certainorg/mikeelm.html This provides only a small sample of the data we have collected on Watson's WKII lies. Including some testimony by Carter Camp (Wounded Knee veteran and AIM leader during that period) ard Churchill (Colorado AIM), Wallace Black Elk, Leonard Crow Dog (Both spiritual leader who would HAVE to had been the one who interpreted any *visions* recieved by Watson) and Ron "Doc" Rosen (Head of the medics who Watson *claims* to have served with)

There is just a small sampling of our evidence and to date NOT A SINGLE SHRED of evidence has come to light backing Watson's claims .......

SHOW ME THE PROOF!

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
12.08.2000

Geez Sheena Watson has only been promising to provide "evidence" for well over a year now and so far ... zip, zero, nada. So why would I believe him now? I'm sure I can find a dozen or more people here who have seen Watson's delaying tactics and have been promise "proof" only to see him weasel out of it as he has done so many times in the past. He "claims" he has a taped interview with Russell Means as "proof". I said great you send a copy of it to me, I'll process it to remove any tape and dubbing noise and convert it to any format he likes, WAV, MP3, Real Audio. Normally I charge $35/hr. for such services but in the interest of finding the truth I'll do it for free. That was back over 9 months ago and so far.... you guessed it nothing, he has weaseled out yet again.....

You're not a very bright person Sheena if you believe everything you are told and never shown any proof to back it up. Until such time ANY of the several pieces of proof Watson *claims* he has is shown to the public there is NO other conclusion that can be reached other than he is lying out his ass.... again ... as usual ...

SHOW ME THE PROOF

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Jerry--in an effort to give Watson every possible benefit of a doubt there have been numerous people contacted who were at Wounded Knee and these people were asked if they remembered Paul Watson. None of these individuals have any memory at all of Paul Watson being there.

In addition to the other contacts made by members of CERTAIN, within the past month I have met with and spoken to four people who have first hand knowledge of Wounded Knee and none of them have any such memories. Not one of them had any reason to be selective because they had no idea why I was asking until after we had spoken of this. When I informed them of what Watson was doing it would be an understatement to say that they were shocked Watson would be making such claims.

Some people would possibly think it may have been possible for someone to have been there that may have been low profile and simply not stood out in memories, but Watson's version in his usual blusterous style included such fabrications as he was inducted into the Oglala Sioux Tribe as an honored hero of Wounded Knee, that he assisted a medicine man in removing a bullet after running through a hail of bullets, that he received a vision that was interpretted by another medicine man, that he received a name, and other such events that would have made a considerable impression upon people who were there. None, not one, of his stories has been verified by anyone and in fact Watson's versions have been totally disputed.

This is important for numerous reasons, not the least of which, is that he uses his Wounded Knee lies as part of his justification for attacking the Makah Nation. Watson "steals" from the Indian People in every way possible and continues to add insult to injury by his claims as he has made and continually changes to this day.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Phil you nitwit I live in the Makah Nation at Neah Bay.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
12.08.2000

The Wounded Knee thing should be very easy to verify. Can anyone else who was at Wounded Knee remember seing Paul Watson there?

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
12.08.2000

Well, Kii you don't know what you are talking of, of the movie Ocean Warrior. You think it's not a hollywood movie, well take a look at the director.

John Badham, I'm sure you heard of him

James Marsden who was in X-Men plays Paul Watson

Rutger Hauer (Blade Runner) is in the movie in a major role.

Victor Low is in the movie.

Paramount Pictures is behind the movie.

You don't believe me, here's where you can find proof. goto www.oceanwarrior.com

Kiiyatuk just opened his mouth and stuck his foot in it.

50 million dollar motion picture, Kii

And it will be a blockbuster.

Now Kii open up your mouth and stick your foot in some more.

How does the crow taste that you just ate?

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
12.08.2000

Well since the last post, look like things are getting worse. The town may be evacuated either tonite or tomorrow. the fire is spreading fast. My sister tells me all she can do is get the dogs in the car and drive if the order comes to leave.

Gonna be a long damn night.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
12.08.2000

Kii,

Typical of you, you always make fun of people. You provided no proof I was Paul's worst own enemy. If I was I wouldn't be allowed to do what I do for the organization. So much for what you know.

Why don't you focus your energies on somewhere else we need you, fighting fires. Back home, the Wind River Indian Reservation is on fire and it's a very bad one, caused by lightning 25,000-30,000 acres alone so far, and it's getting worse. I might have to go home and help move people out if the fire gets to town, and it's within 10 miles. I'm keeping an eye on the situation, and I'm very worried of it. The western half of the United States has the worst fire season in 70 years, and all you can do is think of killing a whale. If the Neah Bay Makah Reservation was on fire, you wouldn't even go to help them with it. Killing whales is more of a priority for you. At least I'm willing to break off here if need be and go home if I have to to deal with this. right now I'm keeping an eye on the sitution, to see if I am needed. I may not be physically able to help put out the fires, but I can be of other assistance to people there.

Like I said, I'm no expert on whales themselves, and there is no need for me to be. We got people with SSCS who are.

Also you cannot prove Paul lied about the Wounded Knee thing. I remember the incident, because it was in the news all the time back home. The only person really in the news all the time on it was Russell Means, and he went to jail for it. I've gotten many an e-mail from Paul, so there.

Like I said 2 posts ago, you have a hatred for me and Paul, and yu have no reason for it.

You are simply just a mean hateful person period. You are cruel.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Sheena---One other thing--Watson did not claim in 1973 to have "hiked" into Wounded Knee. He claimed then that he was a "Canadian Indian" from a tribe whose name was too complicated to spell and that he "crawled" on his "belly" for several miles camoflouged with a tumbleweed into Wounded Knee. He made absolutely no mention at all of a blizzard in the articles at that time. Now you say Watson says he "hiked" into Wounded Knee. Again, another Watson embellishment of a lie to a gullible supporter. Doesn't it bother you even just a little that Watson lies to you like that?

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
12.08.2000

Sheena---You seem to be suffering from a common ailment which people who associate too closely with Paul Watson are contaminated with--mainly that you are so infactuated with your "opinion" that you ignore facts when presented to you--not to mention a very uncanny ability to twist things into distortions which bear no similarity to reality.

There is "no" $60 Million Hollywood film being made about Watson. That is why he is now trying to gather funding to have it produced in Holland, with a very limited success even there. And even "if" a film were produced, to say that a production cost of a film somehow illustrates the success of the subject is absurd. Some of the most sucessful films of all time were fiction and not based upon any real life person at all. Your ability to jump to faulty conclusions astounds me.

As for Paul Watson's statements concerning Wounded Knee---he has changed his story so many times that even that in and of itself would lead a rationale person to conclude he was not there. Never once has Watson stated anything verifiable about Wounded Knee that was not put into print elsewhere. If John would have said that the snow was 50 feet deep and if Watson thought that would add validity to his story that is what the latest version of that pathological liar who you idololize would have been saying now. But yet you close your mind and refuse see Watson for what he is, a total phoney who has made his living off of stealing identities and scamming donations from people like you.

Watson leaves this message board for no other reason than he cannot stand and debate any subject when it comes to facts which he cannot make up and step into the shadows and hide from. Watson is a text book definition of a sociopath and a coward and he proves that with every attempt he makes at trying to appear reasonable and truthful. That is why he hides Sheena, not because he is noble but because his lies have caught up with him and with the technology of today he cannot "hit and run" as he is accustomed to doing.

Paul said he would meet me in a debate. If and when he comes back to Washington I am waiting. Maybe you could be there as well and see how your hero turns redfaced and throws tantrums even in public. In the mean time Sheena, try "thinking" instead of just being a mouthpiece for a blowhard like Watson.

Sheena Lake
Sheenalake@aol.com
12.08.2000

I rest my case Mr. Russell. You are obsessed. 600 documents you say. By all means - publish your book. I'm sure Paul Watson will be very amused. I sent an E-Mail to Paul Watson and he confirmed that there was indeed a blizzard the night he hiked into Wounded Knee. He said that he found your rantings on the HNA page to be amusing and also said that on occasion when he's bored and has some free time, he likes to annoy you all by posting something to piss you all off. He said it was like tossing a stone onto a piece of dog shit covered with flies. They always scatter and buzz about, spreading filth but soon they settle down to doing what they do best - eating shit. I think it is safe to say that his books will outsell your book. People are concerned about saving whales. No one gives a fig about what you have to say about Paul Watson or anything else for that matter.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
11.08.2000

Phil I know I said I was going to ignore you but what you just posted is just too tempting to pass up on.

You did not have to state that you know nothing about whales because that is self explanatory to anyone who reads anything you post. It is refreshing to see you admit that to yourself and at least you have a smidging of honesty.

As for your "job" as a "Rush of the whales" I find that simply halarious. Just as it is selfevident you know nothing about whaling, it is also self evident that your diet has caused you some severe imbalance in whatever it is that feeds a person's brain functions. Maybe you should eat something more nutritional than just bread and maybe, just maybe, you may start thinking more clearly and perhaps even a rational thought may come to you.

A perfect example of what I mean is that I have never said Paul Watson was "your" enemy--what I have said, and fully mean, is that "you" are an enemy of Paul Watson. Evidence? Just read what you write and see if you were Paul Watson if you are the type of supporter that he is going to feature on his website, give you a role in his movie, or even in one of his books. Quite simply put Phil, you are an embarrassment to the antiwhaling people and they only keep you around because you are willing to continue your racist and bigoted diatribe which they in turn will deny they themselves doing. You serve a function Phil, but a function they will deny at every chance they get. Ever wonder why good ole Frank and Paul don't ever respond to what you say or give you suppport in your postings or even agree with what you say? It is because you are a liability to them. Just like when you sent me the email last year warning me that I did not understand people were willing to die to stop the Makah and you cc'd that email to the SS and Watson. Have you ever heard of complicity? You established that link very clearly in that instance. That is why Paul Watson agreed that even some of his supporters were his worst enemies.

Have a good day Phil--get some real food, take a rest, and find a life.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
11.08.2000

I know nothing of whales and how they tick, but that's not my job. My job is to try to save what there is, and I only been at it for 2 years. Before then I had never even seen a whale up close. but last year, I went whale watching, and they are intelligent as Paul and other have said. Why you guys want to kill one I don't understand save for you making money off them, and that's the bottom line reason for the hunts.

As far as what I eat, mostly just bread, toast, etc.these days. some healthy food eh?

Kii, you have evidence Paul Watson is an enemy of mine? Because he isn't.

Also John, I'm very anti-communst. How about U?

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

Oh yes, it is also worth noting that for all whaling peoples throughout time, whaling has always had a commercial aspect. The medium has changed, from tools and inland foods to cash, with which to buy equipment, and supplies, but traditional commerce remains: as it always will, as exchange. There are many, many forms of commerce in the world: and whether or not they rely on cash as the medium, the worlds of meaning which suspend and limit the transactions it reflects remain entirely diverse.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

Bruce:

You seem to be coming from a number of angles on this one, yet I cannot help but ask "what, exactly, is your point"? You accept that some cultures kill whales, while advocating that others do not (specifically, the Japanese). Why the specific distinction? And yes, in a strictly literal sense, the death of a whale and the death of a cow are different; and so's the difference between the death of a slug, and the death of a carrot...but it wasn't my point to contest the obvious; you have bypassed the question Bruce: ethically speaking, which is best, an animal living free and wild until the brief moment of death (the 12 minute kill you report was extremely long, from what I know; it is not typical), or an animal which is from birth bred to be slaughtered? For the cow, the pig, and the battery chicken, life would seem to be a kind of suffering, by which the few moments of a whale's sudden death seem minor indeed.

And one final thing: you will find that the world's whaling peoples whale to feed themselves, and their communities: and I would like to shift this discussion to them, and away from japan this, japan that...and ask, Do you oppose a people's basic right to sustenance and nutrition, if those people classify whales as 'food'? And if so, why??

There is no humane way to kill anything Bruce...shall we not eat, then? Aversion to the method cannot be the basis for effective opposition: it makes a weak case for ceasing a practice. However, Bruce, should the Japanese, or any other cetacean harvest become unsustainable, wasteful, or in the service of industry, and not to feed a people, I would oppose it. But until that point, what's the problem?

You seem to have an impressive academic, and perhaps personal, knowledge of whales; Have you explored the traditional knowledge of whaling peoples, to augment and expand this knowledge?? Take time to explore the whaling traditions of the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples of British Columbia, the Maori knowledge of cetaceans, and yes, even the Japanese...when you speak with whalers, and whaling peoples, and bypass the orgs., lobbyists, and celebrities in the way, you will be most enlightened, and will understand whales in a way you have perhaps not yet considered. Good Luck.

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

I would personally like to say that I am finding these on-going discussions incredibly informative and educational.

While my stance has not changed, I feel enlightened.

Thank you to anyone who has presented an arguement against me. It has taught me many things - principal among them:I should not be so narrow minded.

All of you have presented informed rebuttal. And I feel all the more educated for it.

I am not here to resort to name calling - I am here to corrospond with people so that my knowledge of whaling and its aspects may be enlargened.

Regards,

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

Urban,

"Bruce: One cannot speak of “whaling” in a generic sense; there are a number of nations, communities, and indigenous peoples who harvest cetaceans, and all do so in particular ways, in the context of distinct cultural lifeways."

I fully understand this, and I have always felt that in some cultures, the killing of 2 or 3 whales is as old as the culture itself. I understand and accept this. I do not support commercial whaling or Japan's "scientific harvest'. Yes - some cultures to have a history of whale killing that goes back for several periods.

"Be careful not to become so fixated on the japanese (a country whose cetacean harvest is minimal, sustainable, and has ever been thus)….what,then, is at the root of this constant preoccupation with the japanese? "

It is hard not to when Japan is the nation that is leading the return to whaling. Japan is where the market for whale meat exists. And it is Japan that first conducted "scientic research" as soon as the moritorium came into practice.

"Could it run a little deeper than purely ecological concerns??"

NO.

North American culture has a deep and abiding fear of the “orient”, the so-called “yellow hordes”, who consume and devour everything in their path.

Being half chinese (and often mistaken for Japanese), I know what it feels like to be racially discriminated against. This North American culture that you speak of, I know nothing about for I am from New Zeland.

"When one makes claims against the greedy, voracious japanese whalers, yet in the same breath cannot back these claims with evidence detailing unsustainable, damaging practice, another cannot help but consider that other fundamental, perhaps unconscious presumptions are on display. "

I have never said that the Japanese harvest is unsustainable.

"As a final note, however, on the topic of Japanese whaling, I would remind you that the Japanese harvest is nothing new"

The "scientific" harvest only begun when the moratorium came into effect and banned commercial whaling. "Scientific" whaling is new - commercial whaling is not.

The market is limited, Bruce, a point you acknowledge. Yet this does not mean it should therefore be abolished because a handful of North Americans, Europeans and Australians cannot look beyond the death of a cetacean, and see the cultural, social, and spiritual realm which ulitmately suspends that moment in ways foreign to your emerging sense of the world. What it does mean is that claims made decrying the “global whaling industry” and the “evil Japanese” are intentional fabrications, designed to forward the cause of various organizations through the exploitation of people’s fears.

My intentions are not to attack the Japanese. More so their continued whaling efforts. I would feel the same if it were any other nation.

Again, Bruce, I welcome your disagreement with me on this, but only if you can come up with some evidence to go along with it.

"Bruce, I think you should consider your world-view; it is particular, in that you make a very un-ecological distinction between cows and whales, and place one over the other."

You seem to have missed where I am coming from on this one. All animals are equal in God's eyes. The point that I am trying to make - is that you cannot compare the killing of a cow to the killing of a whale, because they are killed in vastly different manners. Cows are not shot at with harpoon loaded with a greanade - death resulting from iron fragments fatally piercing internal organs. You only have to watch a whale getting killed. You and me will never experience the agony that a whale must endure upon his/his death at the hands of the harpoon. While I agree that cows don't have it easy, you must agree with me that it is much easier to kill a cow than a whale.

"Bruce, your employer, Burger King, is destroying this planet’s ecology; your paycheque is blood money."

For $7.25 (NZD) I refuse to defend my employer.

"Not the small catch of abundant Minke whales which graces the tables of some Japanese households."

While the catch may be small (in relation to previous decades and/or stock sizes) - the catch is increasing every year.

"Not the whale taken by sacred, ancient contract by the Makah people (an interesting aside: the Makah were opposed for using a .50 calibre rifle to ensure a quick, humane kill….yet, at the same time, whalers are opposed for those whales who die slowly…what gives??)"

I don't believe that a large whale may be killed humanely.

Regards,

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

Urban,

Speaking of facts and evidence, here’s some from an earlier post of yours which points most directly to the sort of deep racial bias I have discussed: careful Bruce, you are sounding a little spooky here:

"Money makes the world go round" - how true indeed. Let us all bow to the all mighty YEN.

How should one interpret this evidence, Bruce? The options are few, and ugly.

Let me explain what is meant by this. From what I can understand - Japan is the main market for whale meant and blubber. What is driving this market is the demand for whale meat and the fact that there is money to be made in it.

I am not sure, but I think that the pirate whaler Sierra operated illegally to supply the Japanese market.

Note: I am not saying this as a fact, when I have it as an actual fact - I will present it as so.

This is the kind of exploitation that I am talking about.

I have no doubt in my mind that there are stock levels that could be harvested, and pose no threat to the species. But if a commercial element is evident, then the fear is always there.

Believe me, no racial discrimination was intended.

Regards,

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
11.08.2000

Bruce

Not to nitpick, but in the course of three separate posts, to separate people, you have said:

1. I have no time to find exact facts that will support all of my arguements

2. I will not present a fact unless I am certain that it can be verified.

3. I will not claim to be knowledgeable in areas that I am not.

Bruce, as you seem genuinely interested in informed dialogue, I would suggest you follow your own guidelines; and would point out that to lack facts is to lack knowledge. Yet you post nonetheless, placing bold declarations, and emotive rhetoric where the facts are supposed to go. A tactic of your idol, and a colossal bore. If you want dialogue, can the rhetoric and get some facts.

Speaking of facts and evidence, here’s some from an earlier post of yours which points most directly to the sort of deep racial bias I have discussed: careful Bruce, you are sounding a little spooky here:

"Money makes the world go round" - how true indeed. Let us all bow to the all mighty YEN.

How should one interpret this evidence, Bruce? The options are few, and ugly.

Regards.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
11.08.2000

Wrongo Sheena, we have done the research. In fact I have over 600 documents covering Watson's lies. Talk about a book, that's about what I'll end up with when I finish fully documenting all the crap he has told over the years from being a "Canadian Indian" to supposedly crawling 12 hours into Wounded Knee (But omitting there was a severe blizzard on that date and he'd be dead if he weren't lying about it) to being made a member of the Oglala tribe. I have tons of evidence to show he is lying including testimony from dozens of people who were actually at Wounded Knee '73 many who were the leaders, but Watson has yet to provide even a single shred of verifiable evidence to prove he was there .... nothing but the fiction piece written by Bob Hunter that is so full of holes it couldn't hold a single drop of water.

And that's only a starter package, just look at all the lies he has got caught telling about the Faroe Grind in just the last couple of months. Perhaps he REALLY is this pitifully ignorant of International laws and treaties but I doubt it,(Although it would explain why the idiot keeps getting arrested for breaking the laws) he just makes stuff up as he goes along because he knows most morons like you won't even bother to cross check his "facts".

I'm not a pro-whaler, I just hate liars like Watson who not only cons well intentioned people out of their hard earned money but has to steal from the spirituality and culture of a people he then purposely harms, in order to sucker even more people into sending him money.

Bottom line is Watson is so full of shit it probably runs out his ears when he tilts he head to the side. His books and movies are at best fantasy and at worst just pitifuls lies .....

Sheena Lake
Sheenalake@aol.com
10.08.2000

Gee, there sure are a lot of boys in here without much to do but research the activities of Paul Watson. This and the hateful ramblings on this site convince me that you all see Captain Watson as a threat. Seems like he's doing his job - pissing off the whalers and those who support whaling. With a $60 million dollar Hollywood movie in the works about his life and his book sales increasing, it appears that you are not having a very successful campaign in discrediting him. Keep wasting your time boys. Keep wasting your time.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

Bruce: One cannot speak of “whaling” in a generic sense; there are a number of nations, communities, and indigenous peoples who harvest cetaceans, and all do so in particular ways, in the context of distinct cultural lifeways. Be careful not to become so fixated on the japanese (a country whose cetacean harvest is minimal, sustainable, and has ever been thus)….what,then, is at the root of this constant preoccupation with the japanese? Could it run a little deeper than purely ecological concerns?? North American culture has a deep and abiding fear of the “orient”, the so-called “yellow hordes”, who consume and devour everything in their path. When one makes claims against the greedy, voracious japanese whalers, yet in the same breath cannot back these claims with evidence detailing unsustainable, damaging practice, another cannot help but consider that other fundamental, perhaps unconscious presumptions are on display. Not to say you do not have such evidence, nor that you are motivated by these deeper cultural biases; rather, to remind you to employ this evidence in the course of your assertions, lest one be forced to conclude you have none, and are indeed motivated by deeper, particular assumptions….claiming lack of time and resources to gather actual evidence to back your claims does not wash, brother Bruce; have you not learned that one should examine facts prior to issuing proclamations?? Sorry, but until you can back your claims with something more substantial than your developing ideas about how the world works, and the nature of man, I must view them as more of a personal narrative, and less a discussion of issues.

As a final note, however, on the topic of Japanese whaling, I would remind you that the Japanese harvest is nothing new; it has been ongoing for centuries, a period which includes the past few decades. At no time has this harvest approached an unsustainable level: the motivation of money has always been…so, if you’re assertions are to hold water, why has this sudden, dramatic escalation in the hunt not occurred?? The market is limited, Bruce, a point you acknowledge. Yet this does not mean it should therefore be abolished because a handful of North Americans, Europeans and Australians cannot look beyond the death of a cetacean, and see the cultural, social, and spiritual realm which ulitmately suspends that moment in ways foreign to your emerging sense of the world. What it does mean is that claims made decrying the “global whaling industry” and the “evil Japanese” are intentional fabrications, designed to forward the cause of various organizations through the exploitation of people’s fears. Again, Bruce, I welcome your disagreement with me on this, but only if you can come up with some evidence to go along with it. Bruce, I think you should consider your world-view; it is particular, in that you make a very un-ecological distinction between cows and whales, and place one over the other. Bear in mind that this fragemented, hierarchical view of nature is a particular product of your upbringing: it is not a point of view shared by those outside the Western sphere: Take a walk, for pete's sake; go out to your vegetable garden, if you even have one, and tell me that there is more wonder in a whale than in a growing plant, or the complicated balance of birds, bugs, slugs, and worms. And if by chance you should manage at last to see that EVERYTHING is wondrous, full of spirit, and worthy of respect, do you suppose you'll still eat supper tonight? Welcome to the fundamental reality of whaling in todays’ world: not for money, but for food, Bruce. Healthy food, locally and sustainably gathered, foods to which people have evolved to eat over millenia. Bruce, your employer, Burger King, is destroying this planet’s ecology; your paycheque is blood money. Not the gray whale eaten by the Chukotkan people, who are on starvation’s edge. Not the small catch of abundant Minke whales which graces the tables of some Japanese households. Not the whale taken by sacred, ancient contract by the Makah people (an interesting aside: the Makah were opposed for using a .50 calibre rifle to ensure a quick, humane kill….yet, at the same time, whalers are opposed for those whales who die slowly…what gives??)…what is better, ethically, Bruce: food that lives freely, in it’s full and inherent nature until the brief point of death, or foods engineered, cows who from birth receive hormones for growth, live cloistered to encourage tenderness, conceived in test tubes, designed from the start to die….all of this is an a Whopper, Bruce; you will not find this in a whale roast. Perhaps before you set forth to declare what other cultures can and cannot do, and to presume a place of judgements of practices and traditions you do not fully comprehend, you should examine the contextual elements of your perspective, and the convenience of your distinctions. Cheers

Hijiriy
mtsaint@olive.ocn.ne.jp
10.08.2000

Bruce,

Do you know former delegatse of Caribian nations were the representatives of anti-whaling groups? Do you know such groups paid a lot of money to make them join the IWC?

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

Takayuki Kono,

"Politics, huh, Bruce? Yet Japan may simply be borrowing tactics used by anti-whaling countries to push the moratorium through in 1982".

Yes - this is correct and I agree that several non-whaling nations were brought to the IWC to help anti-whaling nations. However, and I am not sure, did all these anti-whaling nations fund poor nations and then EXPECT to have their votes at meetings? This is what Japan did, and one Government Minister of one of those Carribean nations you meantioned - resigned over it and in protest to Japans actions.

Between 1978 and 1982, during jockeying before the vote to impose the moratorium, anti-whaling bloc had used a lot of money to recruit a lot of nations into IWC. Thereby, the IWC's membership grew from 17 to almost 40.

Correct.

That effort also brought several of the Caribbean countries into the IWC. It also added anti-whaling countries like Austria and Switzerland to the mix - landlocked states that were never whalers and oppose whaling.

The Caribbean nations you talk of - are now receiving development aid in exchange for their vote. Did this happen to Austria and Switzerland? Two countries that are significantly more well off than the Caribbean nations.

Any coment, Bruce? On this issue, I once asked for a comment to your hero, but he can't make a decent comment and simply escaped from the dabate.

It was expected though, since he was likely to be one of the privy.

I cannot vouch for Paul, and you make serveral good points.

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

"Oh I get it now Bruce, only YOU can have a job and make money in an animal killing industry (And that is EXACTLY what Burger King is) For some reason a whale is somehow "better" than a cow? Therefore killing cows = OK but killing whales = bad."

Russel,

How can you even begin to compare to the killing of whales to the killing of cows? Are cows chased aroung a field to the point of exhaustion, and then shot at with harpoon cannons? Don't get me wrong. I know that the life of a cow cannot be a pleasant one and they would no doubt feel some discomfort at their time of death. But the killing of whales is different. Even you would agree that the market for cow meat is significantly larger than the market for whale meat.

Well if you add it all up the end equation is you're nothing but a hypocrite ......

A hypocrite simply because I work at a fast food joint? The killing of whales and cows employ significantly different techniques and serve vastly different markets.

And I'd like fries with that please .....

Not a problem Sir, would you like to King Size your order for an extra 50 cents?

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

P.S

I thought that I would clarify my opinion of Captain Paul Watson.

I view him as my Idol. It is never ending love for whales that I admire. That is how I relate to him.

I don't agree with making up facts on the spot - as you can see this leads to people questioning your crediability and undermining your good intentions. This is what happened to Paul. However his heart is in the right place and I truly believe that his intentions are good.

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

Kii,

Let me clarify my stand on whaling for you and everyone else.

I am opposed to whaling.

Why?

For two reasons.

(1)

I see no need for hundreds of whales to be killed each year for a small and limited market (this market was pointed out by Urban).

(2)

Ethically. I once saw a Minke Whale getting killed from beginning to end - all 12 minutes of it. You can't tell me that after what I witnessed, that a wahle does not experience any pain while its getting harpooned and electruted.

But Kii, understand this - while I am a staunch anti-whaling supporter, I do actually take the time to read what the views are of other people. I respect that and I understand that not everyone feels the same way.

This is why you will not see me calling you or anyone else names. What does that acheive? How can that add to a healthy arguement? I believe in a good honest debate and I stirve to make use of facts when I am certain that they are relevant and accurate.

I will not claim to be knowledgeable in areas that I am not.

I will not present a fact unless I am certain that it can be verified.

I may not be as knowledgeable as the other people here at this site, but I know a lot more about whales (and to a slightly lesser degree - whaling) then any other 18 year old I know.

While my attitude is hard - I will respect other peoples opinions. Sorry if you thought otherwise.

I hope this has cleared things up for you.

Regards,

Bruce

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
10.08.2000

As usual Seawolf shows his abject ignorance of yet another subject. (Gee why am I not surprised there?)

If you had even a small clue of the Pilot whale migration you would know it has barely begun. July and August are the peak times for the hunts and Watson has been abscent for what will be all of August. Even after August Pilot whales can still be hunted so to say that it's over simply because the SSCS turned tail and headed out is a very weak argument at best (At worst it's pure unmitigated BS).

And lets see some concrete evidence that the hunt has cost the Faroes "millions" .... if you can't I suggest you take your own advice and take your "bullshit" and walk ....

You sound like a damned Communist Phil .....

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
10.08.2000

Oh I get it now Bruce, only YOU can have a job and make money in an animal killing industry (And that is EXACTLY what Burger King is) For some reason a whale is somehow "better" than a cow? Therefore killing cows = OK but killing whales = bad.

Well if you add it all up the end equation is you're nothing but a hypocrite ......

And I'd like fries with that please .....

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

Urban,

"P.S..If you'll consult NOAA numbers, you will find the global sperm whale population ringing in at an abundant 2 million (with even more conservative estimates placing them well above 1.5 million) How exactly, Bruce, will the Japanese harvest threaten the health of this species?? Just wondering..."

It is a well known fact that male Sperm Whales travel further into polar regions than gestating Cows, and females with calves. Hence they were more abundant for the whalers already in the polar areas. Thus, the majority of Sperm Whales killed were male.

Unlike the roquals in which both sexes migrated to the polar regions. Here the whalers killed both sexes.

Another interesting note is that in the Sperm Whale speicies - the Bull grows larger than the Cow. Thus the most attractive target (the whaler been presented with a pod of whales) would be the biggest, the Bull.

Unlike the roquals in which the Cow is the larger of the two sexes. And thus the most likely to be targetted.

Sperm Whales were killed in large numbers for a very long period of time, and yet remain abundant (as you stated with population numbers), yes you are correct. But if the indusrial need for Sperm Whale products is no longer existant (which you have stated) - then why kill them in the first place?

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

Dear Urban,

"Where's this huge global market for whale products??"

There may not be a global market - but don't me wrong, the market in Japan is extremely lucrative. Why else would over 400 Minke Whales get killed every year? Why else would Pirate Whalers operate?

"Show me a whale hunt going on in the world today that is unsustainable, or which harvest more than 2% of the population hunted. Good luck".

While there is no such hunt at present - it may not be too far away. Research is not driving modern day whaling - money is. And as long as there is money to be made, men will try and make it. Remeber that the whaling industry is a poorly regulated one, with the IWC been extremely ineffective. Commercial whaling should have ended in 1986 with the moratorium. Yet Iceland continued to kill whales until they were stopped via the SSCS. Norway blantly defies IWC ruling (due their official objection to the moratorium), and the IWC has repeatedly asked for Japan to end its "research". Bottom line - the IWC is in a poor position to enforce its own rules and regulations.

"There simply is not much of a market for whale meat: the tiny market that exists has existed for centuries, and will continue to exist in the future."

The market in Japan may be small but it is profitable - and profit is what is driving the majority of todays whale hunts.

"Perhaps you are confusing commercial whaling with industrial whaling, and imagining the great fleets of yankee whalers, slaughtering entire whale stocks with impunity."

While I doubt that we will ever see these days again, bear in mind that the men haven't. The world still revolves around money.

But these, Bruce, were not the whaling peoples of today: they were the employees of profiteering corporations, feeding a global industrial/military demand for whale oil to lubricate the machines of industry. But long ago, synthetic oils took the place of whale oil. The global whale product market collapsed, and will not return.

They have not discovered a syntheic alternative to whale meat and/or blubber that can be eaten - because whale meat is in a class of its own. It can not be duplicated. However you are correct in that INDUSTRY no longer demands whale products. Yet the market for whale meat in Japan is still there.

Please note that I am a fulltime student doing 25 hours a week at Uni and an additional 35 - 40 hours a week slaving over a counter selling burgers to hungry patrons at Burger King.

I have no time to find exact facts that will support all of my arguements - hence I refrain making any bold statements that require scientific verication and proof.

Believe me I would if I had the time and resourses to do so.

Regards,

Bruce

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
10.08.2000

Aw come one now Phil---you know that I consider you one of Watson's worst enemies so why would I hate you? If you remember even Watson agreed with me on that one. So tell me Phil, do you still sit behind locked doors with loaded guns waiting for the local crack dealers to kick your door down? You do worry me Phil---you seem to have become more and more fixated on violence in the past year---a lot more graphic in your posts concerning violence and death. Are you getting closer to the edge Phil? Of course you know Watson is not going to give you a lawyer or even send you a card when you are locked up don't you? Just look at what happened to dear ole Frank here---got locked up for three whole days and came out a sniveling crybaby.

I think all of you need to take a rest don't you agree? You sure haven't made any points lately worth reading or responding to and until you do consider yourself basically ignored Phil.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

"seawolf":

This does not, of course, preclude continued dialogue on the assertions you have made: you could start by answering the very detailed questions I posed to you sometime ago. Then, perhaps, you might get the attention you seem to crave. But until then, as I said, you remain irrelevant to the issue at hand. Regards.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

poster know as "seawolf":

don't hate you at all, man; you're irrelevant to me. Sorry you had to go to the trouble of writing all that; sounds like you're a little worked up there. Don't forget to breathe! Cheers.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
10.08.2000

Well the scumbag MTH was exhumed from his grave I see, MTH, the walking ghost. Hmmmmmmmmmm............ Next time I'll hafta do to him like I did Jesse James 3 years ago, stomp him in the ground further so he won't come out.

The Faroes was a success, 39 whales got slaughtered instead of the usual 2000-3000 whales slaughtered each year. So we did put a stop to it save for the 39 whales, and that's because Ocean Warrior was detained by the thugs wanting their papers, otherwise they would have not gottenn any whales, period. So it is a fallacy that Sea Shepherd was ot successful, we were.

Gotta remember this, money talks, bullshit walks, and the Faroes is losing millions of dollars off their Grind. MTH o you have millions of dollars to make up for their losses?............. Figured so, you are all bullshit talk. Cause you can't put your millions of dollars where your mouth is.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
10.08.2000

Well Kii and Urban,

You started all ths bullshit of name calling before I even got on here, and that's why I was asked to come on here, to take you guys on. Most everybody in SSI knows I don't take your namecalling laying down, I will name call back. When you change your stance against Paul Watson, then I will change mine. You guys are racists yourself, first off you want the only privelege (SP?) to hunt whales, and fuck all the other citizens in common, and you have, and had such a hatred for SSCS and Paul Watson for years. So we have to fight you bastards back verbally.

So unless you change, the fight is on

It's almost a sure guarantee, you hate me worse than Paul Watson, but that's OK, I'm in good company, and I'm not alone either.

Like I said before and will again, someone needs to sink that big sumbitch Nisshin Maru and any other whaler ship, then she will never kill a whale again. Too bad when she caught fire 2 years ago, she didn't sink then. Several hundred whales would be alive today.

So your call guys

The Dreaded MTH
certainorg@uswest.net
10.08.2000

Wow! Having eschewed (look it up, Phil...) the Seattle Insider "Environment Forum" <http://www.seattleinsider.com/community/forums/environment.html> AKA the "Makah Whaling Forum," which would be better known as the "ARA Wailing Forum," for some time now, I dropped by to read through some of the Highnorth Guestbook comments and wasn't disappointed at all. Same old lines from the Sea Serpent folks - Keith and Dave have y'all nailed in your refusal to back up your statements with anything resembling fact and in your odd group ability to reinterpret the ass-kicking that Watson & Cie. received in the Faroe Islands as a "victory."

But Keith was right in his response to you SS folks (and that "SS" seems more and more appropriate as more facts come to light...see Dave's posting regarding SS-member postings advocating deadly force tactics against the Makah...leaning a bit toward the Hitlerian, aren't you?), that by running your stuff up the flagstaff to see who salutes, you're giving those of us in possession of researched facts every opportunity to rhetorically blow your ships out of the water.

So I guess I'm here to say, "Thanks. You've done a great job of making our points for us, and of making our job of refuting your arguments that much easier."

Yours truly,

mth

PS: Phil, your admonition that everyone on earth who disagrees with you is "fulla shit" doesn't hold much water considering the amount of the brown stuff you're foundering in, judging from your inability to locate anything resembling accurate information. Just wanted to help you out...

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
10.08.2000

For your information:

A selection of typical postings made by anti-whalers to this guestbook over the past 5 months. This is by no means a comprehensive listing; nonetheless, it should be considered and addressed by all who cry that it is the anti-whalers that are being "targetted"...by all means, look these up yourselves. Here are the unedited voices of Sea Shepherd and its most eloquent supporters:

Fuck you, but not including the horse you rode in on. I got more respect for your horse, than you. KMA 10 4 (Kiss my ass 10-4) 24-06-2000

It's so fucking simple Whalers = Kuntz Nuke the fucking whalers. Peace. 23=07-2000

GUARANTEED THE WHOLE WORLD LISTENS TO ME. YOU WHALERS ARE A BUNCH OF SUCK-ASSES. HOPEFULLY THE OCEAN WARRIOR WILL DO WHAT THE OTHERS SUCH AS THAT WIMP-ASS GREENPEACE HAVE REFUSED TO DO, AND THAT'S KICK YOUR ASS. THIS WHALE HUNT HAS GOT TO STOP. KMA-1004 KISS MY ASS.

25-07-2000

As usual the whalers are fulla shit and they don't giva shit either about what the world says So why should we giva shit what they say. Their ships need to be sunk. PERIOD

Following along the same lines as the Makah argument with regards to their hunt being a proud tradition they are following...my ancestors settled the west, does that mean I should also follow their tradition and go out and harvest some Indians? Not so logical hmm? For 250 years, some North American Indians were considered savages, now thanks to the Makah tribe you know why. Yes they need to "reclaim" some of their traditions but it can't be said that is what they are doing in this case since now they are relying on modern technology which is not a part of their "proud" tradition. Ringlet woman, I think the treatment your people receive on the water is fair, they hunt whales and the environmentalists hunt them, it is the new ecological equilibrium! 18-05-2000

It is gratifying to see that Mr. Miller recognizes himself for the repulsive little cockroach that he is -Paul Watson. 05/11/00

we can only hope that your primitive, ape-like kind will soon reach the extinction that is long overdue and leave the rest of Earth's inhabitants alone.

05/11/00

Can they really do no better than this? Threats, name-calling, and declarations of genocide? Those who write here praising SS and Watson, this is what you are supporting, to your shame.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
09.08.2000

The idea that the recent events of the SS in the Faroe Islands was a "victory" is absolutely one of the most "creative" interpretations of reality that I have seen anywhere in a long time, except of course if you take into consideration the releases of organizations like Ocean Defense International and Dan Spomer. The similarities between all these groups and individuals is fascinating.

The SS declared when it departed to the Faroe Islands that it was going to end the grind once and for all for all time. The pleas for donations came on this basis that it was the grand finale of the SS and would end forever the bloodiest whale hunt. Now it appears that making the news was the objective. I wonder if Watson could have raised the money needed if he had said that the whole purpose of the money was to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for a sixty second spot on CNN? That is sure a far cry from ending a centuries year old hunt.

And speaking of which, Paul, how do you see the boys and gals at Ocean Defense International cutting into your funding? From what I heard they are now trying to get a ship to go protest the Japanese whaling. I would imagine there is only so much money in the kitty for animal rights terrorist groups like SS and ODI, just so much money to buy ships and such for making sixty second sound bite victories. Doesn't the fundraising of ODI and Spomer cut into your trough?

And Bruce--I see where in the beginning you were asking for civil open minded discourse but in the end resorted to the usual anti-whaling party line of not providing facts, studies, and resorted to an absolute position against whaling despite what was presented to you for discussion. Why did you present yourself as open minded when you knew you had already moved yourself into a deadlocked attitude? I personally feel that was rather deceptive on your part and a not very honorable way to present yourself. A little more honesty in the beginning would have been more becoming for you, but as you see, your charade gave the opportunity for more facts about whaling to come out and ended up being a very educational exchange for those of us who are still learning about the balance of life we all share and live in.

Welcome back Rebecca and Sheena. I hope you don't degrade into name calling and cursing as easily as you have in the past. It must be a trait among the SS supporters to avoid true discussions and to resort to smearing instead. You have learned well and your 100 bucks couldn't go to a better purpose than supporting the Faroe Island economy as John Russel pointed out to you.

And SeaWolf---get a life. You are not Rush or Paul and will never be anyone's hero unless you get a dog or something you can keep isolated. Maybe you need a pet, or is that against the ARA ethic as well?

adam sapien
adms@hotmail.com
09.08.2000

Welcome back, SS lackeys: hope your sojurn here is more successful than last time, and that you have managed to come up with more than name-calling and lies to support your claims. Sheena: what "bullshit lies" (my, you're an eloquent one..) are you referring to? A quick look at past postings regarding the web of fabrication and untruth spun by your less than honorable leader indicates that in almost all cases, third-party supporting evidence to back claims against watson has been provided. Contest this evidence, if you want people to listen to what you have to say.

Rebecca, chat room monitor for the SS galley, how exactly was Bruce the target of "abuse"?? He was asked politely to provide supporting information for the unsubstantiated, untruths he was forwarding. Are you all so deluded that mere requests for evidence to support your claims is classified as "abuse"?? Seems a convenient distinction, but hardly qualifies as abuse. If you really wish to see clear and direct instances of abuse on this guestbook, look to the posts of one of your compatriots here, Seawolf: he repeatedly uses foul, demeaning language towards those who hold the developed opinions he lacks, advocates the sinking of all whalers ships, with no regard for loss of life, and has forwarded to this guestbook links 'for whalers to look at' to sites containing graphic photos of death row convicts after electrocution. Get a grip on reality; if you wish to stop the abuse you mention, I would suggest you start a little closer to home.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
09.08.2000

Thanks Sheena and the Faroe Islands economy thanks you also because that is where YOUR $100 will end up at ... to pay Watson's fines ...bwahahahaha

P.T. Barnum was right ... there really IS a sucker born every minute ....

Sheena
Sheenalake@aol.com
09.08.2000

After reading all the bullshit lies about Sea Shepherd here - I'm sending a $100 donation to Sea Shepherd today. Good work in the Faroe Islands Sea Shepherd. Your campaign exposed the atrocities on the Faeroese beaches to the world. Just getting the kill on CNN and in major newspapers is a great victory for the whales and you did that

Rebecca Monaghan
M97007@aol.com
09.08.2000

Welcome aboard all you fellow SSI supporters! I can see Bruce is now the target on here for the pro-whalers! I've been BUSY, yes BUSY working, so I haven't been posting on here. I do intend to pick up this discussion very soon.

Elisabeth Dravecz
for-animals.dravecz@aon.at
09.08.2000

I`am from "FOR ANIMALS-AUSTRIA". Your Website is good and y come back.

Greetings vom Austria!

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
09.08.2000

As usual the whalers are fulla shit and they don't giva shit either about what the world says So why should we giva shit what they say. Their ships need to be sunk. PERIOD

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
09.08.2000

P.S..If you'll consult NOAA numbers, you will find the global sperm whale population ringing in at an abundant 2 million (with even more conservative estimates placing them well above 1.5 million) How exactly, Bruce, will the Japanese harvest threaten the health of this species?? Just wondering...

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
09.08.2000

Yo Bruce:

Where's this huge global market for whale products?? In Japan, whale meat is an expensive delicacy; translation: the demand is very limited. For other whaling nations, well, sorry to puncture your grand global conspiracy, but reality shows a number of tiny nations, and indigenous groups, harvesting miniscule numbers of whales...don't believe me? Then go ahead and prove me wrong. Show me a whale hunt going on in the world today that is unsustainable, or which harvest more than 2% of the population hunted. Good luck. There simply is not much of a market for whale meat: the tiny market that exists has existed for centuries, and will continue to exist in the future. Perhaps you are confusing commercial whaling with industrial whaling, and imagining the great fleets of yankee whalers, slaughtering entire whale stocks with impunity. But these, Bruce, were not the whaling peoples of today: they were the employees of profiteering corporations, feeding a global industrial/military demand for whale oil to lubricate the machines of industry. But long ago, synthetic oils took the place of whale oil. The global whale product market collapsed, and will not return. Crying out that it will is rather a complete waste of time if you cannot back up your assertions with contemporary and historical fact. I'll pass on to you a suggestion made to many of those who oppose whaling in a knee-jerk fashion: do your homework, get your facts straight, and then open your mouth. Regards.

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
08.08.2000

And you have no doubt to totally rely on mass cattle breeding, whose farmland has developed over once bio-diversified natural field such as forest? In New Zealand, they have destroyed 70% of original forest to create farmland.

Some people think differently.

regards.

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
08.08.2000

Politics, huh, Bruce? Yet Japan may simply be borrowing tactics used by anti-whaling countries to push the moratorium through in 1982.

Between 1978 and 1982, during jockeying before the vote to impose the moratorium, anti-whaling bloc had used a lot of money to recruit a lot of nations into IWC. Thereby, the IWC's membership grew from 17 to almost 40.

That effort also brought several of the Caribbean countries into the IWC. It also added anti-whaling countries like Austria and Switzerland to the mix - landlocked states that were never whalers and oppose whaling.

Any coment, Bruce? On this issue, I once asked for a comment to your hero, but he can't make a decent comment and simply escaped from the dabate.

It was expected though, since he was likely to be one of the privy.

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
08.08.2000

Last month I was outraged.

At the IWC meeting, the plan for a South Pacific Whale Santuary was defeated. Why? Because Japan brought votes. By funding local production in small Carrbeanian nations then expecting them to vote with Japan at the upcoming meeting.

Let me tell you what this is - bullshit.

Furthermore - Japan plans to increase its commercial, opps, I mean, its "scientific harvest", to include more Minke Whales and 2 other species of whales. The Sperm Whale and the Brydes Whale.

Let me tell you what his is - bullshit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, what we are witnessing is the first steps towards the resumption of full scale commercial whaling.

Why there is no doubt in my mind that certain whale stocks maybe able to sustain limited hunting - there is a fundemental flaw that is as old as the whaling industry itself.

What is that?

Man.

"Man?" I hear you say.

Well - why do people want to hunt whales in the first place? For money. Don't give me any of this research bullshit.

And the problem with that is that Man is greedy. And when he sees the opportunity to make money he will do so. Whalers have shown this mentality since commercial whaling begun - hence the depeleted stocks and the near extinction of several whale species.

"Money makes the world go round" - how true indeed. Let us all bow to the all mighty YEN. So that more whales get killed and slaughtered and Man continues on his relentless attempt at destroying the planet.

Save the whales, so that our children and their children may one day witness a whale in its own environment - free from the threat of whalers.

Paul Watson, you have my undying support to save the whales at whatever cost.

Bruce

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
07.08.2000

How can you be surprised it would take a month to re-provision a ship up to get underway. Usually it takes many many months even a year to do it. I see you know nothing of running a ship.

Now turnabout fair play.

2 years ago Sirenin had rocks thrown at it by the Makah Indians, which I have proof of on tape, and USCG shirked their duty and refused to protect the ship from the Indians.

Now we have a turnabout. Yesterday, in Seattle while USCG was at the Seafair, kids threw rocks at the USCG boat, and they got away with it, USCG and police couldn't catch them. I hope they broke every window. Serves them right. What goes around, comes around. apparently USCG pissed them off.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
07.08.2000

My guess (I'll admit I don't know for sure) is that Watson is in or heading back to the Netherlands. Most people don't have ANY idea of what this trip to the Faroes was REALLY all about. It was about using non-profit money to sail to the Netherlands to drum up financial support for a for-profit movie. Don't believe me then explain why Watson sailed to Europe a full month early and spent a month in Amsterdam, Netherlands to "outfit" his ship for the Faroe "campaign"? How long could it have taken to get supplies, a day or two tops? Adn do you think it was any accident that the two guys that got arrested going to shore at the Faroes were.... yup you guessed it, they were Dutch .... a coincidence that his target movie investors are Dutch also? I think not.

Now you know why Watson can claim a "victory" because he fulfulled his intended mission .... he went and got to woo his Dutch movie investors and at the expense of the non-profit SSCS and it's suckers... er I mean .... donars. Otherwise the trip would have had to come out of Watson's own pocket or from the movie budget ..... couldn't have that now could we?

Nice scam Cappy Paul .....

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
07.08.2000

Where is Paul Watson at the moment?

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
06.08.2000

Watson Concedes Defeat In Faroes (But claims a ?? Victory ??) You gotta love Watson's (bad) interpretation of International and domestic law....If I disagree with United Nations Convention for the Law of the Sea it doesn't exist but I reserve the right to interpret the United Nations Convention for the Law of the Sea in ways no court, lawyer, or legal scholar ever would (Or does)

GRINDSTOP update by DOUGHBOY August 1, 2000 Update from the Ocean Warrior The ship campaign against the Faeroese whale slaughter is over for this year. The Ocean Warrior was forced to return to Amsterdam by order of the Registry of Shipping for the British Cayman Islands.

The Cayman Islands acting in response to diplomatic pressure from Denmark first attempted to obstruct the campaign on July 17 by ordering the Ocean Warrior to remain in Lerwick in the Shetland Islands for a "routine" inspection by the Cayman Island shipping inspector.

During this inspection, 39 pilot whales were slaughtered on the Faeroese Island of Sandoy, the only kill that took place over the months of June and July.

The Ocean Warrior was found to be in compliance of safety requirements and therefore there was no valid technical or legal reason for the Cayman Islands to prevent our sailing.

Failing to have reason to cite the ship, the shipping inspector presented Captain Paul Watson with the following document

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acknowledgement and Undertaking I, Paul Franklin Watson, Captain of the M/Y Ocean Warrior, registered in the Cayman Islands with official number 732452 (the "Vessel") hereby acknowledges that there exists an order, issued by the Chief of Police of the Faroe Islands under Entry of Aliens in the Faroes Act, prohibiting entry of both myself and the Vessel into the territory of the Faroe Islands (the "Order").

I further acknowledge that the United Nations Convention for the Law of the Sea ("UNCLOS") provides for coastal states to exercise jurisdiction over their waters.

I recognize that this document serves as notice that UNCLOS has been extended to the Cayman Islands and that the provisions of UNCLOS therefore apply to the operation of the Vessel.

Accordingly, I undertake that the Vessel, and any boats carried as part of the Vessel's outfitting will abide by the Order, or any other such orders as may be issued from time to time, until such time as they are lifted or they expire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Captain refused to sign the document because he does not believe that there was any violation of Faeroese law because the Ocean Warrior cleared into Faeroese territorial waters and cleared out of these waters with Faeroese Customs. The Captain is in possession of the official clearance papers issued by the Faeroese Customs. The Captain also had right of innocent passage through Faeroese waters and all entries onto territorial waters were nonstop until exiting the same waters. At no time did the Danish police or Navy ever communicate to the Ocean Warrior that the right of innocent passage was denied.

On July 27, the Cayman Island Registry contacted the Ocean Warrior to say that the ship had left Lerwick, Shetland Islands despite a prohibition on departing. The Captain of the Ocean Warrior was never informed about a prohibition and the harbor master in Lerwick also was never contacted by Cayman Registry of a prohibition on sailing. In response to this defense, the Cayman Registry said that the acknowledgement and Undertaking document implied that there would be a prohibition if the Captain did not sign. This was not the understanding held by Captain Paul Watson

Finally on July 27, the Ocean Warrior returned to Amsterdam at the order of the Cayman Registry. The reason for this order is political as far as the Sea Shepherd International is concerned.

To add insult to injury, the Cayman Registry of Shipping sent a bill to Sea Shepherd International for $11,000 for the cost of the "routine" inspection of the Ocean Warrior.

Despite the intense political and military pressure brought to bear against the Ocean Warrior, the campaign was successful.

Initially we were prepared to physically intervene against Faeroese whalers to protect the pilot whales from slaughter.

The Danish government countered by deploying three Danish naval ships including a powerful frigate. Tactically, the Ocean Warrior could not hope to outclass a frigate.

What we could do and what we did do was to provoke the Danish government into implicating itself with an activity expressly forbidden by European Union regulations. Denmark is a member of the European Union and the pilot whale hunt taking place in the non EU protectorate of the Faeroes is illegal. It is the position of the Sea Shepherd International that Denmark should not be allowed to give military, financial and moral support to an illegal activity.

Sea Shepherd International delivered a strong message that the cruel and bloody slaughter of pilot whales in the Faeroe Islands must be ended. The publicity from our campaign was extensive and will help in the next stage of our strategy - the boycotting of Faeroese fish products. In particular we are targeting the Dutch based Unilever Company for being the primary distributor of Faeroese fish. Sea Shepherd International is promoting a boycott of all Unilever products.

Sea Shepherd International is now seeking to register the Ocean Warrior under a different flag. "We are now looking for a country that is not so easily bullied into doing the political bidding of another country."

Sea Shepherd International will continue the campaign to end Faerese whaling until we shut down this obscene, wasteful, and unnecessary sport hunt once and for all.

"Next year will be the first year of the 21st Century." Said Captain Watson. "Lets leave the ugliness of slaughter and animal torture behind us. There is no room in the new millennium for archaic traditions that depend upon inflicting pain and exterminating life. This thing, this "Grind" that the Faeroese practice, and the Danes support, has no place in a civilized world, and it has no place within the morality of modern humanity. It must go, and we will devote our efforts to seeing that it is consigned to the dark and embarrassing memories of history. In the future, humanity will look back and say, 'how could you have done such a thing, and why did you do such a thing.' No, we will not rest until we scourge the beaches of the Faeroes of the hot and innocent blood of the defenseless pilot whales."

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
06.08.2000

Well suck-ass Russell don't know of what I write. I did not say it's legal to dump garbage within the 25 mile limit of shore, it isn't but go out further than 25 miles, then you can do it. Mater of fact if sewage is dumped in to the lake, coast guard has no jurisdiction in the matter, we got that from the horses mouth, USCG about 4 months ago. because we had to call them, and they refused to even come and check it out. However State Dept of ecology does have jurisdiction over sewage and other substances, when diesel or oil or gas etc is dumped, then USCG will come out.

One more thing, oil and fuel dumping is a 10 thousand dollar fine. You said nothing of SSCS even paying fines, which they did not.

So if you say it happened, then they weren't fined for it, so basically USCG let them get away with it, IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
06.08.2000

Good work John Russel.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
06.08.2000

John Russel

#1) You obviously harbor much malice toward the good Captain, Paul Watson.

#2) You know how to use your computer very well.

#3) Is that all you could come up with?

Keep up the good work Captain Watson! It takes guts to stand up to the evil that men do to whales and other innocent creatures of the sea!

Bold men don't kill, they protect!

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
05.08.2000

It's John Russell AKA John Russell. And it's obvious you 1. Can't read or can't figure out how to use the PSIX data.

@. Have NO idea the implications of having foreign garbage brought into the US (Or any other country)

So let's take item #1, if you had followed the link and the extremely simple instructions you would have found these items. Note the third one is dumping to head DIRECTLY overboard and having NO sanitation device installed. Note #4 the ship was also carrying more fuel than allowed and didn't have the proper fuel documentation, possibly a cover-up of some other violation .... or just incompetence? :

MV93000436 Los Angeles, CA January 14, 1993 THE VESSEL DISCHARGED A.P.H.I.S. REGULATED GARBAGE INTO A DUMPSTER ASHORE , THAT HAD NOT BEEN APPROVED BY THE U.S. ANIMAL AND PLANT HEALTH INSPECTION , SERVICE (A.P.H.I.S.). THE VESSEL ALSO FAILED TO NOTIFY THE PORT OR TERMINAL, AT, LEAST 24 HOURS BEFORE ARRIVAL, OF GARBAGE REQURING DISPOSAL.

MV93000436 Los Angeles, CA January 14, 1993 THE VESSEL FAILED TO MAINTAIN ONBOARD IN READY REFERENCE A COPY OF INLAND , NAVIGATION RULES. , , 

MV93000436 Los Angeles, CA January 14, 1993 THE VESSEL FAILED TO HAVE A MARINE SANITATION DEVICE ONBOARD FOR TWO , INSTALLED TOILETS. THE TWO TOILETS HAD PIPING WHICH EMPTIED DIRECTLY , OVERBOARD., 

MV93000436 Los Angeles, CA January 14, 1993 THE VESSEL FAILED TO HAVE COMPLETE OIL TRANSFER PROCEDURES IAW , 33CFR155.750(a)(1), (7), (9). THE VESSELS TOTAL FUEL CAPACITY WAS IN EXCESS , OF 250 BARRELS OF OIL., 

Now let's tackile why the 1st violation, unauthorized dumping of APHIS regulated garbage. It's obvious you probably have no idea of what APHIS stands for so here it is, ANIMAL AND PLANT HEALTH INSPECTION

Why is that important? It's so morons like Watson don't drag into the US (and other countries) things like human diseases, animal diseases and plant diseases for which the native US environment has no natural protection for. That's EXACTLY how a number of serious problems happened in the US over the years, 2 off the top of my head are Dutch Elm disease that nearly wiped out elm tress in my area, and the ongoing problems of Japanese beetle which devestate crops forcing the need to use more insecticide, causing a SERIOUS environmental hazard that probably kills more whales than all whaling worldwide. That is why ALL ship s entering the US HAVE to notify if they are going to dump garbage at a US port, it's just common sense and good environmental practice .... I'd think you'd already know that but obviously not huh?

And you insinuating I'm a drug user because you CANNOT argue the facts.....well it speaks for itself as to what a pathetic loser you really are .... and THAT is why you have nothing to lose, you never "had it" to begin with

It basically comes down to who I believe, the USCG ...or a well known and well documented liar like Watson and the SSCS freak show ....

And who said anything about suing your (admittedly) worthless self ..... Seadork the self-proclaimed "Rush Limbaugh" of the leftwing extremist ARAs ..... that's just TOOOO damned funny .....

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
05.08.2000

John Russell AKA Jason Spaulding, I did take a look, and NOTHING wrote or cited of dumping any type of sewage in the ocen as yu claim. It says they put it in the dumpster, which is legal. also I know of a fishing boat that left and they had piles of garbage on it, and they were going to take it ut and dump it overboard. coast guard said as long as it's 25 or more miles off shore they could dump it. I also went into the weelhouse and check the regs there, and it's posted on the wall that flammible materials are the only thing that cannot be dumped into the ocean that far out. but garbage, sewage etc can be dumped overboard as long as it's further than 25 miles off shore and those are USCG regs. I couldn't believe it when I read it, but it's therefore anybody to see. How do we know what the USCG wrote on the OW or Sea Shepherd II is the truth. It is a fact USCG will lie in court and fabricate their testimony, as they did in the case of Scott Hopper the prpotestor tried in court. USCG and the maka tribe lied on the stand, the judge didn't believe them and Hopper was found not guilty.

So Russell AKA Spaulding, go smoke some crack you might as well, for all the lies you tell. If you deny you are Jason, then how come you said you posted the OW article up originally which was posted under Spaulding's e-mail address.

However I will say this, I am some what more mouthy than Paul is, but I can be, I ain't got nothing to lose. which means if you sue me, you can't pull blood out of a turnip, meaning there is nothing for you to take. And since you started bashing and brainwashing all the people who do not support whale killing, I will bash and brainwash back, and I'm damn good at it. You know sort of like Rush Limbaugh does, but I'm more blunt about it.

If you want to namecall, I can do that as well and will. I will not be silenced, and if it means taking this guestbook off this site, well so be it. I already forced one guy to remove his guestbook, and he don't dare put it back up. Because if he does, it will be removed again. so basically I whipped his ass.

Mads W. Friis
h2so4@hcl.dk
04.08.2000

It's hard to repress a giggle, when you see captain Paul Watson, promoting himself in the style of a lousy actor in any third degree American action movie, pretending to do something useful, challenging the - not so impressive Danish navy - in a quest to prevent the slaughtering of a number of small whales, which are by no means endangered. Why ? You might ask. Well because it looks good to fight events that do not look so good…… nice little whales, which have led a free life in the blue ocean, are killed within minutes – all right it’s a bit bloody - and put in Faeroerian freezers, to be eaten bit by bit – oh yes that’s really horrible – it’s probably worse than any abattoir all over the world, where pigs and calves end their miserable lives, in a stressful horror, by the hundred of thousands every day. Where are the Paul Watsons of the world then?? Nowhere. Because there isn’t a TV-camera anywhere near, and you can’t appear as an awe-inspiring captain of a ship with a dramatic name, doing really dramatic and important things.

What a waste of time and good fuel.

With absolutely no respect.

Mads W. Friis Denmark.

Tom Heier,student
tom@iheier.de
03.08.2000

Thank you for your work, Paul Watson.

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
03.08.2000

Correction: The second link should read http://psix.uscg.mil/Detail.asp?vkey=VN90011254 Then use the button at the bottom of page as indictated in my previous posting. That will take you to the information regarding dumping of raw sewage from head directly to the ocean and other violations

Sorry for any confusion this may have cased

John Russell

John Russell
longjohn@qconline.com
03.08.2000

As usual Seawolf is either too damned ignorant to figure out how to do a proper PSIX search ... or he is lying his ass off .... again ... as usual. So in order to make it easier for the less intellegent folks like him, here are the direct links to the information so everyone can see for themselves.

http://psix.uscg.mil/detail.asp?vkey=VN98000862

http://psix.uscg.mil/detail.asp?vkey=VN98000862 (note: On this one you have to push the button at the bottom of the page that says "View Contacts Prior to 1995" to get to the info)

Seadork one thing you better learn and learn fast is when I hand out information I can back it all up 100%, something you, Watson, Christy, and the rest of the ARA dog and pony show have been proven time and again of NOT being able to do .....

Have a nice day ...

John Russell

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
03.08.2000

As usual Jason has it wrong.

I just checked the vessels out in the port exchange deal you put up, and the only thing mentiond was no calls were made to PSVTS. Sometimes ships aren't aware they have to monitor Marine channels 5a and 14 when they arrive until it's after they get here.

NOTHING was mentioned of any sewage or any other illegal dumping by Ocean Warrior. Nothing on Sirenian period either.

With the rules and regs the coast guard has set down for all to follow, it cannot be done. It is impossible for all their rules and regs to be obeyed. Too many of them.

I know places in the US where Marine 16 is used as a bullshit channel and there isn't a goddamn thing the coast guard can do of it.

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
02.08.2000

I know there are people who don't want to eat whales.

I respect their idea. So I want them to respect our culture, eating whale meat too.

I don't find any ethical reason to quit to eat whale meat, comparing it to other form of getting foods, for example, killing animals which is by and large as intelligent as whales, or developing huge veggie fields over natural biodiverse land.

But I don't force them to eat whale meat. Please don't force us to quit our culture.

We live on a same planet, and I beleive we share a same view that we must not deface our planet. That's why I support carefully managed sustainable use of resources, including, but not only, whaling.

Best regards,

Takayuki Kono