Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
31.07.2000

Hey, Paul! Is this the stuff you claim Helmut Seidich was trying to blackmail you with? ---- here is what I have on the Ocean Warrior and the Sea Shepherd II. This has the illegal dumping and the sewage discharge violations plus each ship was lacking proper fuel procedure documentation.

http://psix.uscg.mil/Default.asp Port State Information eXchange

OCEAN WARRIOR

Nov. 6 1998 - 12 instances of not making position reports and Other navigation violations USCG Zone- Seattle WA area of violation - Neah Bay

February 2, 1998 - THE VESSEL FAILED TO HAVE COMPLETE OIL TRANSFER PROCEDURES IAW , 33CFR155.750(a)(1), (7), (9). VESSELS OIL TRANSFER PROCEDURES WERE MISSING THE LIST OF PRODUCTS, PROCEDURES FOR TOPPING OF TANKS, AND PROCEDURES FOR REPORTING DISCHARGES. USCG Zone - Wilmington, NC

SEA SHEPHERD II

January 14, 1993 - THE VESSEL DISCHARGED A.P.H.I.S. REGULATED GARBAGE INTO A DUMPSTER ASHORE , THAT HAD NOT BEEN APPROVED BY THE U.S. ANIMAL AND PLANT HEALTH INSPECTION , SERVICE (A.P.H.I.S.). THE VESSEL ALSO FAILED TO NOTIFY THE PORT OR TERMINAL, AT, LEAST 24 HOURS BEFORE ARRIVAL, OF GARBAGE REQURING DISPOSAL. USCG Zone - Los Angeles, CA

January 14, 1993 - THE VESSEL FAILED TO MAINTAIN ONBOARD IN READY REFERENCE A COPY OF INLAND , NAVIGATION RULES USCG Zone - Los Angeles, CA

January 14, 1993 - THE VESSEL FAILED TO HAVE A MARINE SANITATION DEVICE ONBOARD FOR TWO , INSTALLED TOILETS. THE TWO TOILETS HAD PIPING WHICH EMPTIED DIRECTLY , OVERBOARD. USCG Zone - Los Angeles, CA

January 14, 1993 - THE VESSEL FAILED TO HAVE COMPLETE OIL TRANSFER PROCEDURES IAW , 33CFR155.750(a)(1), (7), (9). THE VESSELS TOTAL FUEL CAPACITY WAS IN EXCESS, OF 250 BARRELS OF OIL.VESSELS OIL TRANSFER PROCEDURES WERE MISSING THE LIST OF PRODUCTS, PROCEDURES FOR TOPPING OF TANKS, AND PROCEDURES FOR REPORTING DISCHARGES. USCG Zone - Los Angeles, CA

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
31.07.2000

I received a direct E-mail, saying

" Basically this supposed 'management' of the earth and its resources have been a dismal failure in every respect."

Our history contains a lot of failures, it's true. And people with right mind and attitude could learn something from those failures. Do you have any better idea than managing our activities?

As for the whaling, I would like to point out some facts.

1. International organization (i.e. International Whaling Commission) and its science committee has agreed that population of "Mynke whale" is around a million, estimated by scientific research.

2. International whaling Committee has adopted a very strict and safe method to calculate moderate quota, which is called RMP (Revised Management Procedure ) which is recommended by its science committee where all the scientist of it is in favor for this RMP.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/iwcoffice/Estimate.htm http://www.whalesci.org/qanda.html

Thus, operating whaling on RMP meets the "well managed and sustainable use".

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
29.07.2000

Use the SSI sources, David they are there, and they got scources to back them up as well. You just can't find them.

david sapien
dsapien@yahoo.com
28.07.2000

I think if you look closer, phil, and actually read what is on the Sea Shepherd site, you will find no reference or evidence that the gray whale population in question contains mercury. I challenge you to forward scientific evidence, not web page links to organizations who willingly present fabrications and selective facts, backing up your position. Good luck. Try NOAA, Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or the findings of the IWC scientific committe as a start. That is, of course, if you are truly interested in the facts of the matter: could be you find it easier, and less demanding, to merely rattle off inane fabrications. Which is entirely up to you, of course... People will continue to view you as a sort of novel knee-jerk activist wannabe, whose posts are good for a chuckle. This is avoidable, however: do your homework, get your facts straight...then maybe we can talk. Until then, futher dialogue with you is a collossal waste of time and energy. I leave it with you. Regards.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
28.07.2000

I did, David. The source has been in these posts for years, look at www.seashepherd.org

david sapien
dsapien@yahoo.com
27.07.2000

Seawolf (Phil)

as per my earlier request to you, please forward your source material, (you know: evidence, proof, substantiation) for the claims you have made regarding mercury levels in the eastern pacific gray whale population. Where's the evidence for this? Are you even capable of backing up any of your ridiculous statements?? Claims made with evidence to back them up are worthy of respect, if nothing else. The unsubstantiated claims you have made, and the posts you have presented smack of ignorance, narrow mindedness, and are a testament to the limited wonders of a feeble mind. That said, you still remain one of the most eloquent voices to speak out against contemporary whaling to date. Back your claims, or withdraw them.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
Date: 27.07.2000

Correction: That's die from eating the whale meat

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
Date: 27.07.2000

Whereas, since the whalers and such like to eat whales,

Whereas: since whale eat can kill a person, cause it has Mercury in it,

Whereas: the whalers and such are stupid enough to eat the meat,

Now therefore: there is ample opportunity for any of us to open up a mortuary or funeral home, and when they die, we could bury the bastards, and make $5,000 dollars a pop on this. then to add to further insult donate the money to the folks committed to stop the whale killing, such as Sea Shepherd or other groups commited to this necessary task.

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
26.07.2000

Yo, Paul! Are you still a Canadian citizen? I am trying to keep my data on you current.

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
25.07.2000

Seawolf:

I agree with what you are saying about Greenpeace.

They think that getting petitions and running around in inflatables with firehoses attacted to the back, is going to to the murder.

Reality check : its not.

The whalers have to be confronted on their own terms. And giving them petition ain't going to do shit.

Greenpeace, although I respect their efforts, don't quite get it. However we must remember that we are fighting for the common goal which is of course the final end of whaling world-wide.

Stop the killing.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
25.07.2000

GUARANTEED THE WHOLE WORLD LISTENS TO ME. YOU WHALERS ARE A BUNCH OF SUCK-ASSES. HOPEFULLY THE OCEAN WARRIOR WILL DO WHAT THE OTHERS SUCH AS THAT WIMP-ASS GREENPEACE HAVE REFUSED TO DO, AND THAT'S KICK YOUR ASS.

THIS WHALE HUNT HAS GOT TO STOP.

KMA-1004 KISS MY ASS.

Bruce
limbrucelim@hotmail.com
25.07.2000

To Paul Watson,

After recently watching your video "Ocean Warrior" I have come to realize that there is someone out there doing what I only wish I could do.

As my friends will tell you, I am dedicated to the conservation of whales and firmly believe that there is no need for continued whaling efforts, commercial of "scientific".

And for a long time now I have always said that whalers have no respect for petitions or for other political tactics. If I come to a whaler and say "I have a petition and 50,000 people have signed it and we all think whaling is bad" - what is the whaler going to do? Nothing. He doesn't give a fuck. As long as the whale gets killed and he gets his money.

So to respond to this, you have to engage the whalers on their terms. Get out there and cause some havoc. God knows that I would given half the chance.

You are my idol, for been able to do what I have wanted to do but haven't been able to do so (I am a struggling University student in New Zealand).

So Paul, keep up what you are doing to save the whales. Your efforts are not in vain one day I hope we can both see the day when whales can swim freely in the ocean without fear of whalers driven by greed.

Your biggest fan...

Bruce

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
23.07.2000

Six billion people are living on this planet. With these so many populations, whatever we do can cause great impact to our environment. We must carefully manage our activities.

Whaling is no exception. Setting quota must be based on best scientific method. Of course protecting marine environment is vital, not only for whaling but for everything on this planet.

I think whaling can be a good example for sustainable human activity, considering that it is one of the most studied field of hunting, ensuring the best management based on scientific knowledge. 

Bill Cliton
billgates@microsoft.com
23.07.2000

It's so fucking simple

Whalers = Kuntz

Nuke the fucking whalers. Peace.

btw: 2374@csis.ca

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
22.07.2000

You know, I can't remember which of you it was, but there have been protestors here who have said no one has ever been hurt by the antics of the enviro-animal rights actions.

However, in noticing the email address of some bearing the ELF domain name, which may be just a coincidence, I am reminded of the fierce arsons in the Vail, Colorado area for which persons calling themselves ELF have taken "credit."

And with that, I also look at the praise the Unabomber has made for that arson claimed by ELF. No one can claim the Unabomber hasn't hurt people in his "work."

These are some interesting associations.

You can see the quote of the Unabomber at my website.

sigvald
Sigvaldz@post.olivant.fo
21.07.2000

hi 1-0 to the Faroe Island..... Poul Watson went away for this time and he is more then welcome back. if he ever come I wold like to give him so of the best tasting meet,,,, whale meet, and it is still better then cow meet

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
19.07.2000

Frank

Nobody's pissed at you; truth be told, your words and actions don't matter much at all. It seems you desperately crave attention, but unfortunately, old man, you simply don't provoke or merit much of a response one way or another. Regards.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
18.07.2000

Mr. Twinkle:

A word of friendly advice. I don't think its a good idea to suggest people do anything to your "ass" while in prison, including kiss it-- it may have contributed to the beatings, etc.

Also, could you comment on the article on CNN about the Orca killing off the Sea Otter populations.

Frank Trinkle
ft@elfweb.com
18.07.200

Having just returned to Amsterdam from 3 1/2 days in a Faroes Island prison, I am pleased to see the debates continue here.

What is most enlightening is that all the supporters of Makah whaling have shown themselves to be exactly what we have often stated... Pro-whalers period.

The endless justifications for whaling are coming from those individuals who previously claimed support only for "traditional" Makah whaling. Now they are defending whaling worldwide... EXACTLY what the Japanese and Norwegians hoped and paid for.

As someone who has now been imprisoned, beaten, and expelled for five years from Scandinavian countries on behalf of my whale brothers, I feel justified in telling the pro-whalers here to "kiss my ass". Our efforts will continue unhindered, despite your rhetoric and actions until every whale, dolphin, pinniped, and other threatened species is no longer in danger. If that pisses you off... GOOD!

The Ocean Warrior will be returning to the Faroes later this week to continue our intervention against the world's largest and most brutal whale slaughter. The campaign will continue long after the Ocean Warrior has left the islands as well.

For the whales,

Frank Trinkle Sea Shepherd International

David Sapien
sapien@yahoo.com
11.07.2000

Bradley

You are correct about the official Japanese attitude historically, and perhaps currently, towards the Ainu people; however, I would suggest that this misses the point of my post, which was to indicate that your assertion that “no other races” lived in Japan was false. And it was; which naturally must bring into question the other broad assertions you have made. The fact that you have demonstrated a depth of knowledge regarding the Ainu would seem to indicate you knew this all along, casting your words in an even more dubious light. Putting this aside however, there is a deeper, more interesting side to the argument you have put forth: namely that you seem quick to on one hand villify the Japanese for their racist, colonial attitude towards the Ainu, while at the same time, you put forward rationalizations and defences for these attitudes as manifest by elements of the anti-whaling movement towards the Makah. The Ainu have indicated their desire to begin harvesting whales once again: when they do, and the same forces that have villified, harassed, and spread hatred against the Makah people focus their attentions on the Ainu, will you still insist that this is substantively different than their treatment by the Japanese, whom you villify for these reasons? In the space of two posts, you have presumed a place of authority and judgment over three ancient, distinct peoples and cutlures; perhaps it is time to turn that gaze inward for a time, and examine the root of your rationalizations, and the convenience of your distinctions.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
10.07.2000

david

The Ainu are indigenous people who have always occupied the northern islands of Japan. Japan didn't formally recognize them as an indigenous people until 1997. The Ainu have the same history of land seizure and discrimination at the hands of the Japanese as many other indigenous people through out the world. If you read their history, you will see that japan is only now beginning to formally recognize their cultural rights as indigenous people.

My statement; that you will not see any other races living there remains true to its context. I don't believe that the Japanese people would allow the Makah to live among them, not that they would have any desire to do so. My point was to characterize the relationship between the two as one of financial interest rather than one of mutual respect or acceptance.

David Sapien
sapien@yahoo.com
08.07.2000

Seawolf (Phil):

I think folks would be well advised to avoid eating whatever it is that you eat; it has clearly resulted in brain damage, judging from the incoherent rants you post to this forum. You can of course keep it up if you like; nobody's listening to you. I'd suggest going outside once in a while; you know, getting a life. But if you really want to have a dialogue, here's an excellent opportunity: please list those whale hunts going on in the world today that, based upon harvest numbers, represent a threat to the population being hunted. Think you can do that? I doubt it. Oh yes, perhaps you could also forward your source material for the claim that the Eastern pacific gray whale stock has damaging levels of mercury; again, I doubt you have any. You've certainly shared what you think; now, please, share what you know, and back it up.

David Sapien
sapien@yahoo.com
08.07.2000

Bradley:

"No other races living in Japan?"...Ever heard of the Ainu?? Lived there for thousands of years...whalers...ring a bell?? You can't even get the basic demographic realities of Japan straight; one must consider your other statements suspect as well...do not presume to sit in judgement of traditions and practices you clearly know nothing about. I think you need to try harder to make your point...getting your facts straight would be an excellent start.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
08.07.200

Kii,

And you call yourself honorable? Well you goddamn sure are not honorable, since you call people racist just because they disagree with the Makah whale hunt. Matter of fact you are no better than a commnunists which they do the same thing. Take that suck-ass letter the socialists wrote the day after they slaughtered the 3 year old whale.

don't you know that whale meat is not healthy for anyone to eat? It puts out mercury that is unacceptable to the human body. Matter of fact with the one whale that some of the meat was eaten, you all who ate the whale, well you just shortened your life. And you will probably die sooner than you would have had you not eaten the whale.

But y'all don't know what your doing. And it seems you could care less whether you live or not.

You guys better start making your funeral arrangements. Because if you kee on eating whales, those whales will kill you.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
07.07.2000

Bradley--

It appears to my reading of your post that rather than condemn racism and violence that you are rationalizing and justifying these tactics and actions. I am disappointed to say the least but am seeing more clearly every day how the ARA movement has embraced racism and violence as acceptable to attain your goals.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
07.07.2000

Kii, i also value your dialog on this most important topic.

The Makah used culture/race as the basis of their request to resume whaling, how could they not expect the objections to follow the same line. I know that it must burden the SSCS greatly that native Americans are involved in the killing of whales. It shatters the notion that the Native American harms no animal unless it is necessary for survival. That is what i was taught all through my childhood, and it was one of the most endearing qualities of the Native American peoples. I guarantee you if white men wanted to kill whales from American soil, the SSCS would be equally if not more outspoked in their objections.

The Makah have aligned themselves with the Japanese in their effort to expand whale hunting. If you look at the demographics of Japan, you will not see any other races living there. The truth is that the Japanese will engage in trade and business negotiations with people that they will NOT allow to live among them. That is a selective form of racism, yet the Makah find that acceptable to further their causes.

America is currently experiencing an emergence of Native American economic growth in the form of casinos and resorts, etc. Much of that growth will be dependent on the voting public as it was in California. I sense that the backlash from the Makah whale hunt could stunt the growth of other Native American Tribes if it was to become widely known. I don't think it is fair for one tribe to create such a negetive impression of Native Americans at a time when so many other tribes are trying to garner the goodwill of the voting public. The vast majority of voting Americans find the notion of killing whales to be repugnant. For the sake of the economic wellbeing of the vast majority of other Native Americans, i think that the Makah should abandon their whale hunt. To continue to push for the hunt, is to put their needs above the needs of many others and that is most unbecoming.

In this day and age, no one needs to kill a whale, it is one of the ugliest things that man can do. It will never gain acceptance. It will only cause the public to become more animated in their opposition. When the issue is finally put to rest, it will only bring shame those who once found it acceptable. The whales belong to ALL citizens of our planet and are not the exclusive property of those who only want to kill them. The rest of the world has rights also, and they WILL be heard. In every issue of life, there are long runs and short runs, this issue is currently in a short run.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
06.07.2000

Bradley---

I find it refreshing that you value integrity and honor as much as I attempt to in my life. It is good to be able to have a discussion with you.

What "inspired" me to defend the Makah and Nuu chah nulth Nations was primarily the ruthless attacks upon the People of those Nations by people who claimed to love whales and life. Among these people was Paul Watson, whose website, speeches, and advocations of violence and terrorism resulted in a very racially based attack upon the Makah. Watson openly made alliances with some of the most racist people in the Northwest Coast and knowingly added fuel to the fires of racism and violence in the area.

Watson and his supporters did not limit their attacks upon the whalers, but attacked the entire village, manipulated the fears of people, and when even small Indian children were threatened with bombs and spit upon Watson and SSCS stated that somehow they deserved it because of the whaling. This is totally unacceptable.

Watson has no honor, has no credibility, and even an inkling of research into his claims show repeatedly the deliberate misrepresentations that he manufactures. Bottom line is that Watson and the antiwhaling people gathered at Seiku are not honorable people, and their sole intent is to use any tactic whatsoever as justification to their cause. Even when that involves whole scale attacks on villages, women, children, and old ones.

Nothing is sacred to Watson, nothing is beyond his ability to rationalize in advancement of his cause, and he is one of the most vile people I have ever had the displeasure of contesting.

I am sure you agree that in the scheme of healing the world we all live in that social justice issues, racism and protection of children of all races is also a priority that needs to be kept in sharp focus when engaging in differences of discourse such as you suggested and see clearly. Watson sees social justice as a diversion and scorns any reference to responsiblities for his roles in agitating potentially violent situations for entire communities and regions. Surely Bradley you cannot support such a strategy and implementation of honor and integrity.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
06.07.2000

The statement that Paul Watson made was more of an affirmation of his resolve than an admission of any lack of honor.

All men are fallible to some degree or another, Capt Watson is no different, but the good he has done on behalf of OUR oceans far outshadow any shortcomings that have been revealed here, and that's not likely to change.

The whales belong to all people of the human race and not to a handfull of men who hunt them for their money. One of the most fundamental facts of life is that all men need to provide for their loved ones. Some men build, some men farm, others heal. Honorable men find a way to do something constructive to earn their living. Killing whales requires neither bravery or honor. It is repugnant to the vast majority of men who's work contributes to a better society and a better world. Killing whales is absolutely unnecessary and the rest of the world knows it.

Kii, you defend those who kill whales, so I am curious about your personal relationship with the sea. Do you spend time on the water? What would inspire you to defend those who would kill such a beautiful thing as a whale?

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
05.07.2000

Bradley--

With all due respect to you, I find it very complexing to say the least that you would support Watson and the SSCS and at the same time state:

"One can determine the strength of ones own argument by the character of ones opponent. That is why integerty and honesty are the most important factors that anyone has to offer on behalf of their argument."

I have done enough research into the lies of Watson and SSCS to find them anything but credible, and as you can see on this very message board, Watson himself sees honor as expendable. Don't you think there are enough legitimate environmental groups who do espouse integrity as a fundamental requirement instead of supporting people and organizations such as Watson and the SSCS? Why detract funding from the legitimate discourse of balance of which you speak by supporting extremists who exploit even their own supporters with falsehoods and endless rhetoric employed solely to raise money?

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
05.07.2000

Your extensive reasearch

From what i can see, your extensive research has yielded sweet nothing that would detract from the good that Capt Watson and the SSCS have done for our oceans. I would like to suggest that the fruits of your extensive research efforts have been more of a vindication than a condemnation of the efforts of the Seashepherd Conservation Society.

I have no training in psychology, but it is my sense that your characterization of Capt Watson as narcissistic, could be constrewed as envy on your part. He has done something very real with his time here. The SSCS has made a difference on our planet and will continue to do so inspite of the objections of those who feel free to kill and those who would support them.

These issues are the politics of human existance and they have similarities to many other passionate issues. I am in favor of the death penalty in most cases, yet i don't want to live in a world where everyone is in favor of it. The tension that the opposition brings to the debate is essential! One can determine the strength of ones own argument by the character of ones opponent. That is why integerty and honesty are the most important factors that anyone has to offer on behalf of their argument.

The preservation of nature IS the preservation of mankind. Those with the ability to look up ahead realize this, those who only look around themselves will never see it. Those who look only at themselves and their short term needs are the ones who are truly narcissistic.

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
04.07.2000

While continuing my extensive research on the mostly fictitious career of Sea Shepherd's cowardly leader, I ran across this diagnostic guide: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/faq19.html

Question: Are Narcissists addicted to being famous?

Answer: You bet. This, by far, is their predominant drive. Being famous wraps up a few important functions: it endows the Narcissist with power, provides him with a constant source of Narcissistic supply (admiration, adoration, approval, awe) and fulfils important ego functions. The image that the Narcissist projects is hurled back at him, reflected in the eyes (or in the imagined eyes) of those exposed to the celebrity or fame of the Narcissist. This way he feels alive, his very existence is affirmed and it begets a feeling of clear boundaries (where the Narcissist ends and the world begins).

There is a set of Narcissistic behaviours typical to the pursuit of celebrity. There is almost nothing that the Narcissist will refrain from doing, almost no borders that he will hesitate to cross to achieve renown. To him, there is no such thing as "bad publicity" – what is important is to be in the public eye, not the judgement commonly passed by the public. Because the Narcissist equally enjoys all types of attention and likes as much to be feared as to be loved, for instance – he doesn't mind if what is published about him is wrong ("as long as they spell his name correctly"). The only bad emotional stretches are those that are endured by the Narcissist during periods of lack of attention, publicity, or exposure. The Narcissist will then feel empty, hollowed out, negligible, humiliated, wrathful, discriminated against, deprived, neglected, treated unjustly and so on. At first, he will try to compromise and obtain attention from ever narrowing groups of reference ("supply scale down"). But the feeling that he is compromising will gnaw at his anyhow fragile self-esteem. Sooner or later, the spring bursts. The Narcissist will plot, contrive, plan, conspire, think, analyze, synthesize and do whatever else is necessary to regain the lost publicity ground. The more he fails to secure the attention of the target group (always the biggest available to him) – the more daring, eccentric and outlandish he will become.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
02.07.2000

I copied this from a news wire and i offer it as an outstanding example of how one tradition can be exchanged for another in the most uplifting way. We can only hope that the good people of the Faeroe Islands will find similar grace in the abandonment of the tradition they call "Grind"

LONDON (Reuters) - Freemen dressed in medieval garb drove a flock of sheep across London Bridge for the last time on Tuesday before the abolition of a centuries-old tradition.

Lord Mayor of London Clive Martin joined more than 400 Freemen of the City, an order dating back almost 1,000 years, to raise money for charity after police said they would scrap a range of traditional rights no longer suitable in modern times.

``It is a myth that the Freemen have the legal right to drive sheep across London Bridge, but it was traditionally done to avoid taxes and turnpikes,'' the Lord Mayor told Reuters.

Martin said the event had raised more than 40,000 pounds ($59,750) for Barnardo's children's charity, which is this year's beneficiary of the Lord Mayor's Appeal.

The pedigree Jacob sheep, which had been trained to cope with crowds, were insured for the day by their owner and event organizer Jenny Tate.

Organizer Sean Larkins said City of London police would scrap a raft of ancient traditions and rights in August. The event was a fun way to raise money and mark the end of an era.

Larkins said Freemen were once a respected order of traditional professions such as fishmongery and stirrup-making. They were accorded a number of rights or freedoms in the city, including the privilege of being hanged by a silken rope should they be condemned to death.

Now they are mostly concerned with fund-raising for charity, said Larkins.

muhammad muharram hidayat
aneh_ndi@angelfire.com
29.06.2000

new comer

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
24.06.2000

Well I said that because Kii has been fighting with me for over a year.

Now here is something new for Kii and his cohorts to look at.

www.hamblin.com/plate.main/ex.html I got this off the internet as you can tell.

David Sapien
dsapien@yahoo.com
24.06.2000

Seawolf

You are clearly one of the most eloquent individuals to speak out against whaling to date. Bravo! Your posting, taken as a whole, stands as a succinct presentation of the collective wisdom of the anti-whaling forces. I am sure that every one one who posts to this guestbook to decry the harvest of cetaceans will concur with silent assent, that you speak for them as well. Well done bro!!

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
24.06.2000

Kii,

Fuck you, but not including the horse you rode in on. I got more respect for your horse, than you.

KMA 10 4 (Kiss my ass 10-4)

Captain Paul Watson
PaulWatson@earthlink.net
22.06.2000

Kii ya Tuk, It's been fun, but I've got a campaign to do for the rest of the summer and thus no more down time to waste in frivolous exchanges with yourself. I only answer your hysterical postings when I'm bored and I don't think I'll be bored again until well, maybe October. Have a nice summer and go pester someone else for a few months.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
22.06.2000

Paul and Frank:

The list of lies Watson has told and that you Frank have helped to spread in relationship to the SSCS is too long to post on this message board. I did not say the oil spill did not occur---what I said was that given your zero credibility with people who spend any time at all doing independant research into Watson or SSCS would have to verify any and all sources of information you put out for fund raising solicitations. There is a vast difference between your fanciful website version of events and reality.

I will be busy for the next few days and will not have time to post the lies I am sure you are going to claim don't exist. When I get back though I will continue this with either of you.

And Phil---don't even try it. You sound more like a cackling barn yard hen all the time.

Frank Trinkle
ft@elfweb.com
22.06.2000

Chiming in here with a response to the outrageous allegations that the oil spills we were involved in never happened...

If these spills (Erika in France, Russian ship in Turkey, and Pipeline in Brazil) didn't happen, I'd sure like to know what the hell I was working 18 hours a day coordinating rescue operations from the States for.

For the record, we DID raise a very little money for oil spill operations. The money raised was used EXCLUSIVELY for oiled wildlife rescue... PERIOD. We did not have a dime left over after multiple international operations. We saved thousands of birds and cetaceans and coordinated the efforts of multiple organizations and wildlife experts. The REAL facts are that our costs exceeded targeted donations, and stating otherwise is total fantasy by those who can't stand the fact that we are effective.

Those who would claim that the oil spills didn't happen probably also deny the German Holocaust and certainlyh think that man has never REALLY landed on the moon.

To them I say - "Get a life, and in the meantime, do your best to pull your head out of the dark places it currently resides"!

Frank Trinkle Public Relations & Development Director Sea Shepherd International

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
21.06.2000

Seawolf:

You sound more and more like a cultist to me.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
21.06.2000

No Jerry,

If the aircraft had meant to crash, it would have. there wasn't no warning. Proof is all the success that Sea Shepherd has had in the past with no human injuries or deaths. No one, and I repeat NO ONE can undertake an effort like that without some injuries to humans or even deaths. We are meant to be here for the job at hand that must be done, and it will be done, or Paul Watson and the Sea Shepherds wouldn't be successful as we are today. When you got a good captain that knows what he is doing, that makes all the difference.

Jerry you need to take up a different line of work. why don't you join up with Kii and get in VHEMT. You might be more useful there than here.

We are here to stay till the whales are no longer threatened and there ain't shit you can do of it.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

END OF STORY

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
21.06.2000

Seawolf:

or maybe it was a warning and second chance by those forces.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
21.06.2000

Those are excellent examples of vitriolic tirades. Always seem to get them when you question, instead of answers.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
21.06.2000

The URL I posted is correct, so Kii you have fun with VHEMT

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
21.06.2000

Well Kii,

Guess us protectors of wildlife are meant to be here. 2 weeks ago, I could have very easily bought the farm. I was on a Northwest flight (Boeing 757) to Memphis to catch my connecting flight to Kansas City and the engine started vibrating badly at 37000 feet and we had to put down in Billings in an emergency landing. It indeed was scary, because the engine could have fallen apart in mid-air and the plane could have crashed killing all aboard including myself. I do indeed feel lucky to be alive right now because of all the air crashes that have happened recently. apparently we made Seattle news, which surprised me.

Here's hoping that Paul has smooth flights wherever he goes.

Someone must want us around. So it's my guess that the whales have a powerful friend in the high heavens, and we are here to do the work for their friend. So Kii you have formidable opposition.

What might be in more your line is to join VHEMT which is the Voluntary Human Extinction Program. I think it's www.vhemt.org but I'll check for the right URL and repost if it's different.

Captain Paul Watson
PaulWatson@earthlink.net
20.06.2000

Gee Kii ya tuk- you really are one dense individual. It would be a simple matter to verify the oil spills where our crew were rescuing birds in December and January. However, if you were to do so - you might find that your illusions about Sea Shepherd would be shattered and well, with a mind as fragile as yours, that might be a dangerous thing to do. As for me not having credibility with you - like do you really believe that I give a shit?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
20.06.2000

Paul Watson:

Who me? I'm not the one trying to impose my will on another people. I don't claim to be an expert in anything. In fact, unlike animal rights extremists, I solicit and listen to the opinion of others-- as demonstrated by the ample space devoted on my webpages. Unfortunately, it consists mainly of vitriolic tirades hurled at me.

I was just curious, after your lengthy writings on the evil of killing animals, as to your belief in their diet and what it means. Would it be wrong for a shark (or some other predator) for example to kill whales-- or just humans? Would it be wrong for the whales to kill other animals? Do the whales eat salad? Do they have photosynthesis?

What do you think?

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
20.06.2000

Paul--

Unfortunately you have lost all credibility with me and there is no way I am going to believe what you just posted. I remember thinking last winter how sad this had become---remember back when your website had on it all about oil spills and your work on those?

At first I thought that perhaps you did work on some good things in your organization---but then I remember all the lies and distortions you made about the Makah whaling and it struck deep inside me that before I would send you one penny I would have to call the counties and locations involved and verify that there even was an oil spill occurring. The thought that you would find a picture of an oil soaked bird and put it on your website to raise more money on a non-existant oil spill was indeed bizarre, but that is where your credibility and honor had led you to. After researching you and the SSCS I found it entirely likely, not just possible but likely, that there was no oilspill and you were just making it up to raise money.

So Paul, your figures you present and the posting you just made is meaningless to almost everyone who has spent anytime researching you or your organization.

Kevin
kevin@junkbiz.com
19.06.2000

Hello, I am offering some antique hand made flensing knives, spears and a harpoon, which I thought some of you might be interested in seeing. They may be seen at the following link: ITEMS or searh under whaling on ebay. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely yours, Kevin Sudeith

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
18.06.2000

Capt Watson

I want you to know that your efforts to protect the whales are deeply appreciated. There are many evils that men commit on behalf of their money, but none so damaging as those who would kill a whale. I know that in your heart, you hurt not only for the whale, but for those pitiful souls who would kill. I also know from your writings that it is particularily painful for you that native Americans are choosing to do this.

The splendor of Native American reverance for nature was reduced to a myth by one tribe. It is a shame for all, that one tribe take away so much from so many. Though they don't understand, you were the one who tried to prevent it. Your voice was the one who ran up ahead and told the world that the bridge was out. i am a seafaring man, i have about two heros in this world, one of them is the late carl sagan, the other is you. I implore you to never stop.

Catain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
17.06.2000

I'm sure you would know the answer to that Mr. Ellison - it seems to be your area of expertise.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
16.06.2000

Mr. Watson:

Are whales herbivores, then?

Catain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
15.06.2000

Gee Kii Ya Tuk, - My fringe group as you describe it has 40,000 supporters and we recruit additional support each day. In the last week we have conducted hundreds of tours of our ship in Amsterdam and raised considerable support. The City of Amsterdam has waived our port and pilotage fees. A 60 million dollar movie on Sea Shepherd begins filming on Sept 15th and will be released in 2001. We are about to launch a major campaign to the Faeroe Islands and I'm turning away media crews requesting to join us. We will have five international television crews on board. But you say we are losing support. If we are - I fail to see it. The movement to protect the whales is much stronmger than the dark movement that seeks to slaughter them. Those who kill serve only themselves. Those who protect life serve the future. You have chosen to side with the takers of life and you have the audacity to pity me for my compassion and question my honour, my integrity and my philosophy. Well, Kii Ya tuk, there is much under the heavens and on earth that is not included in your anthropocentric philosophy. Because I do not share your eagerness to kill - this does not make me someone to be pited by you. I think you are incapable of compassion and thus incapable of pity for anyone or anything that disagree with your views and what I hear from you is posturing words orginating from a person who has convinced himself that he is of a more superior and moral culture. Believe what you will but don't go making presumptions about my happiness or state of mind. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you have no right to sit in judgement over things you know nothing about. Opinions are assholes and everyone has one.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
15.06.2000

To Key

How can I be one of Paul's enemies? Sometimes you don't know what you write.

Catain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
14.06.2000

To Kii Ya Tuk, The answer to your question is "yes".

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
14.06.2000

Paul---

When I first contacted you it was because I saw something you had written and took you as a man of honor. I soon found out differently---and for the first time since then I have found something you said that I totally believe---your quote here of "I would in fact happily sacrifice my honor to prevent the killing of any more whales by the Makah or any other group of humans"--

It is so hard to be angry at you when what I feel is pity for a person who openly admits their honor is expendable in life. I am not worried about your save the whale campaigns so much lately--you have shown total disregard for scientific data, legal treaties, etc etc etc---most standards people are going to accept whether you agree or not. Your "conservation society" has turned into a "whales rights" movement---which is such a fringe element you cannot sustain it. Fanatics do themselves in time and time again. Surely you see what your following is made up of and that has to concern you in any long term strategizing---just look at poor Phil here---such a devoted follower and yet one of your worst enemies.

But Paul, do you ever look into the sky out on that ocean and wonder where you fit in the bigger scheme of life? Do you ever wonder what life is like to live connected to all things that move and breathe and not just connected to a fringe movement advocating whales rights as superceding human rights? You don't even equate ecosystems or life as in balance or equality, but place whales above and beyond all that is. But does that fill your void? Does that provide you an answer for the silent questions of the soul?

You have said you do not believe in spirituality, yet you want to advocate that only a whale has such qualities. If human beings do not possess such sacredness as well how is it that you are able to discern what you deny exists? I think you need to do some soul searching Paul and step back from the fringe you stand on---it is a long way to fall off the edge you have placed yourself upon.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
13.06.2000

Paul,

Didn't the Makah also gives this Ozette land to Clinton when the made the deal to hunt whales with him? that's my understanding of it.

Good luck in the Faroes stopping the whale hunt.

Hobie asked of you as well yesterday. He wondered how everything was going.

Phil

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
12.06.2000

Jerry, perhaps you didn't realize that the Makah stole their land from the Ozette, a people that they wages a successful war of genocide against. The Makah have only been in the area of Neah Bay about twice as long as the Europeans. They invaded from Vancouver Island. They also murdered some 500 Clallums at the turn of the century and kkept slaves until 1910. All people are the same Jerry so it ain't the case of the White man giveth and the White man taketh away, it's always the case of the people with power givith and the people of power taketh away. The Makah once had the power and abused it as ruthlessly as any European. This is not about racism, it's about human donimance over nature and all humans are in the same boat.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
12.06.2000

Wel I found someone more formidable for the Makah and any other whalers to take on other than a poor defenseless whale.

How about them going after an ostrich. Well maybe they don't have the guts to do so, cause the ostrich will fight back and kick their ass. I just visited one of the US largest ostrich farms reportedly 500 head. they seemed like they were 15 foot tall, and had once been feeding out of an old car, and they kicked the headlights out and destroyed the grill. this simply means that if the whalers take on an ostrich, that would be a fair fight. and the ostrich would destroy the whaling canoe. Wouldn't that be a fun fight to see.

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
12.06.2000

Kii and the gang still don't get it, the Makah are under court order not to hunt. And they said they were gonna abide by the ruling, and not hunt whales. But can the Makah be trusted? Well they need to prove themselves

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
11.06.2000

To: Kii ya Tuk, Is it worth it? Aside from the fact that I reject your accusation that I have sacrificed my honour to protect the whales, I would respond to you that I would in fact happily sacrifice my honor to prevent the killing of any more whales by the Makah or any other group of humans. This decision by the 9th circuit court does indeed benefit the whales and it does indeed hurt their killers and thus it is a big victory and I rejoice in it.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet
11.06.2000

Hello Paul, so you think the estimate for pilot whales in the central and north-east Atlantic- approved by the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Commission - is just "a crock of shit". I admire your capacity. Just two days ago you were not aware of the existence of the estimate. Remember your remark?: "I don't know where you get your population figures from - from the Faeroese government I suspect". Now you are able to give an evaluation of the estimate with a very tough conclusion. Have you gone through the background documents? Have you read the report of the IWC Scientific Committee on the subject? Do you have the qualifications to make a scientifically based evaluation of these documents? Or do you trust your gut feelings? And why this sudden distrust in a scientific body which is part of the organisation (the IWC) you usually put such faith in.

Your are right that there is a lot of uncertainty involved this estimate (as in most other abundance estimates). But this uncertainty is put on the table and commented on by the scientists involved in making it. What the estimate still tells us is that pilot whales are indeed abundant in the North Atlantic. It is not a scarce resource. The unique catch records for the pilot whale hunt going hundreds of years back is also a very strong indication that the hunt is sustainable.

But again Paul; why do you bother to discuss abundance estimates and sustainabilty. You say that you "stand by" your belief that "killing whales is murder" and that it is "also cruel and unnecessary." Your response to any remarks about the size of the take relative to the abundance estimate and the sustainability of the hunt should consequently be; "it does not matter; whaling is murder and it is immoral even to discuss whales as a food resource".

In your last posting you stated that "for the other issues I stand by what I say". I guess this addresses your claims about Faroese pilot whaling being illegal under several specified international agreements. I tried to help you to make clear exactly what you stand by, by posing some yes-or-no questions. But for some reason you were not willing to answer them. Lets try again. Is it still your opinion (after being informed about the geographic limits of the ASCOBANS agreement) that the Faroe Islands are covered by the ASCOBANS agreement? Yes or no? If you don't feel like answering this question, please explain why.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
11.06.2000

Paul--

I acknowledge that the suit by Metcalf was "successful" in this 9th Circuit ruling on a procedural matter of "timeliness" of the Environmental Assessment. As I know you are aware, there is always the question of whether a full appellate hearing or a Supreme Court hearing would reach the same conclusion. The dissenting opinion raises some very valid points as I am sure you are aware.

I am sure you also noticed that the 9th Circuit did recognize the Treaty Rights of the Makah Nation and the approval by the IWC of the quota. There was also no finding that the EA which was done was faulty in substance in reaching the FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact). It is highly unlikely a new EA will not reach a FONSI as the hunt involves a non-endangered species and causes no environmental damage.

Since your goal is to create as much havoc and miscontent as possible on your journey in life I suppose you could claim such actions as a "success". All I can possibly ask you Paul is if this small "victory" you claim was worth all the lies and pain you caused along the way? You sacrificed your honor only to achieve another Environmental Assessment. Was it worth it?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
10.06.2000

The white man giveth, the white man taketh away...

eh, old boy.

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
10.06.2000

Well, Kii yu Tuk old boy, it seems that you were wrong. We have been successful in court. The Makah hunt is illegal now under U.S. law in addition to being illegal under the regulations of the IWC.

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
10.06.2000

The taking of 5 grey whales (or, as with last year,1) from a population of 26,600 (a harvest of, brace yourselves, a whopping 0.01% of the population) represents no threat to the species, the local ecosystem, or the global environment. period. The new environmental impact assessment will recognize this. Those of us who are genuinely concerned about the health of the ocean environment, however, eagerly anticipate an environmental review of the whale-watching industry: dozens of dragster like speedboats, spewing oil and gas, harrassing entire whale pods, disrupting their acoustic senses, and driving them away from feeding grounds...welcome to the new "enlightened" era of interaction with whales.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
10.06.2000

The 9th circuit didn't order the Makah to do anything, basically just puts some burdens on the federal agencies to do a new impact statement and remands it back to the district court for a new hearing. That's my first reading anyway.

It also is begging to go to the Supreme Court.

You can get the full opinion at my website by the way.

http://carnivoresunited.webjump.com

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
10.06.2000

MAKAH WHALE HUNT STOPPED.

Yes folkws, it's true, the Makah whale hunt has beren stoped. the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the enviro impact statement the gvt did was inadequate. Rep Metcalf's lawsuit was sent back to federal court.

So read 'em and weep. NO MORE WHALE HUNT

May the Faeroe hunts get stopped as well.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
08.06.2000

Paul---

Just curious about your lawyer and your "illegal" whale hunts you challenge---if these hunts are illegal as you claim why don't you file "sucessfully" into courts to get judicial determinations as to your legal theories?

But again that brings us back to one of the original questions I asked you way back when---if you are against whaling by anyone for any reason why cloud your position with legalese you do not intend on bringing into courts? Why all the double-speak on your part?

BTW---while you are speaking to your lawyer ask him about fraudulent fundraising statutes.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
08.06.2000

Probably ought to have your lawyer write you a brief on murder while you're at it, it's the unlawful killing of another HUMAN BEING.

Bradley
bosenn@aol.com
08.06.2000

(i originally posted this on another board, but it should be said here also)

If there is a splendor about your women or about your children or about anything that you people hold dear, i would beg you to not squander it on the tradition that you call 'Grind'. The world now knows of this barbaric spectical and will paint the good people of the Faeroe Islands with a scarlet brush from now until forever, or until the killing of the whales stops. You cannot name a country or a people that have not given up a 'tradition' in one form or another as a willful and conciliatory response to a changing world. The grind is without question, the single most gruesome event committed by any firstworld people on the face of the planet. The blood-red water is all the world knows of the Faeroese people, they deserve a better legacy.

To continue this will only bring further economic and social hardship on your people. Your tradition cannot endure in the face of growing public outrage. Honor and self-preservation dictate that you discontinue the hunt and allow your people to be seen for who they are and not be known by the bloodfest that you call the Grind.

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
08.06.2000

George - quite frankly your foundation for your estimates is a crock of shit. The status of the pilot whale is considered unknown. The science that that estimate is based on is dubious. There is insufficient data. As for the other issues I stand by what I say but you did not accept that, so that is why I said I would have a legal brief prepared for you so that the finer details of the laws can be explained to you. And yes I stand by what I wrote when I said that killing whales is murder. It's also cruel, unnecessary, and eating pilot whale meat is just plain ignorant considering the high levels of mercury in the meat, and oh by the way, the mercury concern has been a consistent part of our educational campaign on the Grind and thus it was not thrown in to deflect from your questions.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet
07.06.2000

Paul! You did not answer my questions!!!

I believe that is quite telling. I think you have put yourself in a really embarrassing situation. You have clearly revealed that you have no idea of the content - or the mandate - of those agreements you use as your motivation / legitimisation for making actions against the Faroe pilot whale hunt. When you state that the Faroe Island pilot whale hunt is forbidden according to a North Sea and Baltic Sea agreement it really demonstrates how little respect you have for facts, documentation and consistency in argumentation. So you have to have lawyer to look into these agreements for you? I don't think that will move the Faroe Islands from the Atlantic into the North Sea. How could you refer to these agrements without having a clue about their content? I belive you should have asked your lawyer to make that brief before leaving for the Faroe Islands.

You wrote: Denmark cannot trade with the EU if it is subsidizing activities that are illegal under the conventions of the EU.

My comments: Denmark is not subsidising the pilot whale hunt. The Faroe Islands and Greenland are not part of the EU. The purpose of staying outside is precisely that EU legislation and regulation are not valid for your area. EU has accepted Denmark as a member on the conditions that Greenland and Faroe Island stay outside. Paul, this is very simple and very logical.

You stated: George - I don't know where you get your population figures from - from the Faeroese government I suspect.

My comments: Again Paul; - you have not done your homework. Activists should have at least some knowledge on the subject of their actions. The estimate of 778,000 pilot whales in the central and north-east Atlantic was approved in 1992 by the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Commission. The estimate was calculated on the basis of the North Atlantic Sighting Surveys of 1987 and 1989 by an international group of scientists led by prof. Steve Buckland from Scotland.

You wrote: The Faeroes leads the world in incidents of mercury induced illness. If people do not want to stop the barbarous slaughter in the Faeroes for the sake of the whales, perhaps they may be supportive of stopping this for the sake of these children.

My comment: When your are caught in an embarrassing situation it is always nice to talk about something else. I am glad you are so concerned about the Faroe Children. So it is on save-the-children-mission you are travelling to the Faroe Islands, not a save-the-pilot-whale-mission. I believe the Faroese are totally capable of caring for the children without your help.

I think you should stick to the arguments you present in your letter to the Norweigan people. ( http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Movements/Sea_Shepherd/le-to-th.htm ) Here you present the killing of whales as the parallel to murdering people. With such a view it is obviously your plight to defend the life of whales, whatever the texts of national law or international agreements says. Part of that letter is reproduced beneath:

" I am speaking to you an behalf of the Cetacean nation. I am representing whalekind in an effort to reach a state of co-existence with humankind .... I swore that my life would be given to fighting those who would persecute the whales ... For one day, if the whales survive, we may discover the ability to communicate with them. We are even now on the threshold of some very exciting break-through in this direction. And if we do, ask yourselves, do you want your children to hear about what you did to the whales from the very beings that you have helped to slaughter? It is a certainty that the whales will talk about you in the same vein as Jews now talk of Nazis. For in the eyes of whalekind, there is little difference between the behavior of the monsters of the Reich and the monsters behind the harpoon."

Flora Causey
leflora@vzinet.com
07.06.2000

I have a book, titled "A Good Day To Die". It is about an Indian Chief, Derabus "Gray Wolf". I can find no other information. Is there anywhere I can research on the web?

We believe this to be the Great Grandfather of our Grand Daughter Amanda. Her Father was Adopted and we are having trouble finding information.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Flora Causey

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
07.06.2000

George - I don't know where you get your population figures from - from the Faeroese government I suspect. The pilot whale is in category K of the IUCN Redbook and that means population status is unknown. I believe that the conventions apply. Denmark cannot trade with the EU if it is subsidizing activities that are illegal under the conventions of the EU. This is why the Danish government cannot directly intervene on behalf of the Faeroese government to oppose us when we go to the Faeores. Denmark has a warship in the Faeroes. They had it there when we were last in the Faeroes. They did not back up the Faeroese police then and they will not back them up again. It also seems to me that the EU would not be supportive of a people that knowingly and willingly feed mercury contaminated meat to their children. There is no argument here - the levels of mercury in pilot whale meat in the Faeroes is well above acceptable limits. The Faeroes leads the world in incidents of mercury induced illness. If people do not want to stop the barbarous slaughter in the Faeroes for the sake of the whales, perhaps they may be supportive of stopping this for the sake of these children. However it will not be the first time that children have been sacrificed in the name of tradition. What I will do George is to have a lawyer prepare a brief to demonstrate the international illegalities of this hunt. When I have it in hand I will send it on to you.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
07.06.2000

I think you see the slippery slope argument.

"Direct Action" in the hands of private citizens with no authorization by elected governments would be called for what it appears to be on it's face if it were a non-politically correct movement.

What is the reation to "direct action" by anti-abortion protestors? Swift prosecution, reproachment by the press and media, conspiracy investigations or other public reprisals, that's what.

I don't know much about Norway, but it appears that the polar region countries aren't falling for the new age doublespeak that has unfortunately gripped my country. Must have something to do with Odin being the god wisdom :)

Concerned Citizens
cc@trollnet.com
07.06.2000

Why they get so attack on the peoples if they so caring? Why the insult peoples differing?

Who is telling peoples they must do what they says. Are they thinking they are some kind of Gods?

The animals is they eating other animal, no? They are protesting them, too?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
07.06.2000

Concerned Citizen:

They do seem to be very unwilling to listen to opposing views. It would be interesting to see what trained psychologists would think of some of their materials.

With an enviroment that says that anyone who questions "us" is subject to demonization, coupled with the ominous stated goal of "direct action" I think concerns are quite justified.

Just look at the case history of enviromental extremists around the world.

Concerned Citizen
CC@trollnet.com
07.06.2000

Please being not a cult. Youse protestors close minded. Call everyone great satan.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
07.06.2000

Just read a great article on animal rights extremists... check it out:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/sam/schulman082599.asp

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
07.06.2000

Mr. Courtney:

Personally I see nothing to support your statement that you have evolved to a higher state than the Makah peoples.

Such arrogance is amusing and typical.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet.no
07.06.2000

Paul, you wrote: " It seems to me George that we have a difference of opinion."

This is trying to escape the easy way. We are not talking about matters of opinion here. We are talking about matters of fact. You stated that the ASCOBANS agreement covered the Faroe Islands. Underneath you will find the description of the "area of the agreement". It does not cover the Faroe Islands. Do you agree? 1) Please answer yes or no.

The ASOBANS is a follow-up-agreement of the listings in the BONN convention of cetacean species in need of inter-state co-operation. You said that the Faroe pilot whaling is forbidden under the Bonn convention. Is it correct that the Bonn convention only lists the "Northsea and Baltic sea" pilot whales (on appendix 2 - the list for species that are vunerable but not threatend) and does not say anything about pilot whales in the Atlantic? 2) Please answer yes or no.

By the way: Are you aware of the abundance estimate for pilot whales in the Northeastern Atlantic? An 1989 survey that didn't even cover the whole area gave an estimate of 778 000 animals. Pilot whales are not in any way threatend in this area. So what is your problem? It can at least not be an ecological one.

You state that the killing methods of the Faroe pilot whale hunt is forbidden under the Berne Convention. 3) Please reproduce the relevant paragraphs! (I have not been able to find them. )

Anyhow; because of a reservation Denmark made when ratifying this agreement it does not cover the Faroe Islands nor Greenland. Is this correct? 4) Please answer yes or no.

(The right to make reservations is written into the agreement; - is part of the agreement. So - if you say that your actions are guided by international agreements, you have to accept the right to make reservations.)

Paul, I would like you to answer all the four questions I have posed here. I repeat; all four of them. They do all address statements made by yourself. So you have something to prove here.

ASCOBANS: "Area of the agreement" means the marine environment of the Baltic and North Seas, as delimited to the north-east by the shores of the Gulfs of Bothnia and Finland; to the south-west by latitude 48° 30' N and longitude 5° W; to the north-west by longitude 5º W and a line drawn through the following points: latitude 60º N / longitude 5º W, latitude 61º N / longitude 4º W, and latitude 62º N / longitude 3º W; to the north by latitude 62º N; and including the Kattegat and the Sound and Belt passages but excluding the waters between Cape Wrath and St Anthony Head;

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
06.06.2000

Mr. Watson:

That's exactly why lynchings and vigilatism is illegal in most civilized parts of the world.

We have evolved courts for handling disputes. Maybe its time for your posse to evolve with the rest of humanity and stop trying to take the law into your own hands?

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
06.06.2000

It seems to me George that we have a difference of opinion.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet.no
06.06.2000

Hello Paul,

Sorry for not getting back to you before with more information on the wildlife agreements you claim forbid the Faroe pilot whale hunt. I haven't heard that you have reached the Faroe Islands yet. That might have to do with your first claim that the Faroe Islands are covered by the ASCOBANS agreement. If you read this agreement you will find out that its geographical borders does not cover the Faroe Islands. You should have understood this already from the title of the agreement. The NS at the end stands for the North Sea. The Faroe Islands is out in the Atlantic. Hope this information will help you find your way.

Then you say that you "believe that the Faeroes is covered under the Bonn Convention (the Convention on the Conservation of Migratory Species of Wild Animals) so long as the Faeroese government receives subsidies from the Danish government." The Bonn convention has two Appendixes which lists species that acquire international co-operation under regional agreements. Pilot whales (Globicephala melas) are listed on Appendix 2, but limited to the North and Baltic Sea populations. The ASCOBANS is a follow-up-agreement under the Bonn convention for cetacean species. As we have seen it is limited to the Baltic- and the North Sea. 

Thirdly you state that "the Faeroese killing methods are banned under the European Wildlife Convention." (The Berne Convention - The Convention on the Conservation of European Wildlife and Natural Habitats) I can't find anything in this convention that forbids the killing methods employed in the Faroe hunt. Furthermore this convention does not cover the Faroe Island (and neither Greenland) as Denmark made a reservation when signing the convention keeping the two home-rule-government areas out.

This thread started with your claim that you only make actions against hunts that violate international agreement. You have still not been able explain why you target the Faroe pilot whale hunt.

Paul's first mailing: Pilot whales are protected under the Bonn Conventio's Agreement on small cetaceans in the North and Baltic seas (ASCOBANS). The Faeroese killing methods are banned under the European Wildlife Convention. The hunts also kill bottlenose dolphins and Orcas, both protected species under the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling.

Second mailing: George - I believe that the Faeroes is covered under the Bonn Convention so long as the Faeroese government receives subsidies from the Danish government.

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
06.06.2000

A Blessing upon Paul and the crew members who risk their lives to serve and protect our kin in the sea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May the sea remain calm before you.

May the wind be always at your back.

May the sun shine warm upon your face.

May your heart be as light as a song.

May your joys be as deep as the oceans,

your troubles as light as its foam.

And may you find, sweet peace of mind, where ever you may roam.

Health and a long life to you!

Namaste,

~Oceanna~

Kevin Courtney
courtneyk@worldnet.att.net
04.06.2000

In reference to indigenous peoples right to practice their tribal blood hunt, I would suggest this, its time to evolve. Your practice is equivalent to the slaughter of the buffalo. Enlightened people have evolved beyond the need to kill for personal gratification.The Chinese are driving the Rhino to extinction because of their belief that a remedy made from the horn increases their virility. For this archaic belief, thet'll drive this majestic beast to extinction. Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest appear to have thrown in with these other primitives in the belief that cultural stagnation is the key to the future. Its time to evolve--or go the way of every other species on Earth that couldn't adapt. Read some Darwin! Were elephant guns part of your culture? Why not just throw away the ruse altogether and get rid of that dangerous canoe and get a proper fishing boat? This wasn't about tradition and I can give you some compelling arguments why. How many of your people are fluent in your native language? It seems you pick and choose your traditions according to your immediate needs.Your ancestors never took anything that they didn't need to survive and the built their legacy on the principle of living in harmony with nature, killing only to live. Those traditions are part of the revolution that has changed the white mans view of the natural world. The tear on the cheek of Iron Eyes Cody means another thing to me now, the last days of a people that couldn't evolve.

Sheena Lake
Sheenalake@aol.com
01.06.2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheena Lake SheenaLake@aol.com 30.05.2000

I see that Kii yu Tuk has revealed himself as a Wise User. He cites Sea Wars! by Janice Henke as his reference to back up his accusation that Paul Watson abandoned his crew. I saw Janice Henke speak once at Lewis and Clark College. She was on the platform with none other than Ron Arnold - the founder of the Wise Use Movement. Janice Henke is a very well known Wise User. Her book was not very widely distributed, mainly through the Wise Use network. Now Kii yu Tuk, why don't you produce a single ex-crewmember of the Sea Shepherd to state that they were a witness to this so called abandonment. I'm sure if they felt they were abandoned that they would be pissed off and more than eager to denounce Captain Watson. Your references are highly suspect Mr. Tuk.

Mark Donners
xyzDonners@yahoo.com
01.06.2000

The sadism and murderous brutality of the Newfoundland instigators of the harp seal slaughter is looked on with disgust and horror by most of the world.

Almost 500,000 seals are sentenced to cruelty and death in Newfoundland every year (the largest wildlife slaughter in the world). This was government subsidized, and actually done as revenge for their self-confessed gross mismanagement of the cod industry, wiping out the stocks of cod and then blaming the seals.

It is unbelievable that criminals like Efford who engage in this kind of wholesale torture and murder of a gentle species are supported by the government of Canada/Newfoundland who use their stupid and greedy PR campaigns to justify this wholesale slaughter.

A small percentage of any human population has the personality characteristic of knowingly taking any opportunity to commit evil, so it is vital that those individuals be stopped. Newfoundland/ Labrador government officials who support the harp seal holocaust would, of course support any barbaric practices wholeheartedly. Like Milosevic, once they have acquired a taste for committing atrocities, they become increasingly more difficult to control.

Businesses and the tourist industry worldwide are being made aware of Newfoundland's true nature and are being called upon to boycott any future trade with Newfoundland and Labrador.

Sheena Lake
SheenaLake@aol.com
30.05.2000

I see that Kii yu Tuk has revealed himself as a Wise User. He cites Sea Wars! by Janice Henke as his reference to back up his accusation that Paul Watson abandoned his crew. I saw Janice Henke speak once at Lewis and Clark College. She was on the platform with none other than Ron Arnold - the founder of the Wise Use Movement. Janice Henke is a very well known Wise User. Her book was not very widely distributed, mainly through the Wise Use network. Now Kii yu Tuk, why don't you produce a single ex-crewmember of the Sea Shepherd to state that they were a witness to this so called abandonment. I'm sure if they felt they were abandoned that they would be pissed off and more than eager to denounce Captain Watson. Your references are highly suspect Mr. Tuk.

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
29.05.2000

apology accepted.

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
26.05.2000

Public apology to Phil -- "Seawolf" I sarcastically wrote Phil that if he believed in animal rights, I could give him the opportunity to sacrifice himself instead of black goats at a Satanist ceremony. This was wrong.

Jason Spaulding <kenny_lives_76@y...> Date: Thu May 25, 2000 11:32am Subject: Amends

Dear Phil,

Examining my own conduct, I apologize for that Satanism joke last winter. I know you didn't take it seriously, and didn't report it to the police.

However, it was illogical as the "tu quoque" fallacy. Just because you're an asshole, doesn't give me the right to be one. I owe Liz some thanks for pointing this out to me.

"Tu quoque" is all too common on Usenet, where I've picked up some bad habits.

Happy trails, Jason

debbieredbear
no spammo
25.05.2000

Jason I have been wondering when someone would mention the fact that Paul Watson's allies, US Sen. Slade Gorton(R-Wa) and US Con. Jack Metcalf (R-Wa), are in fact two of the biggest proponents of the Wise Use Movement in Washington state. Their involvement with "saving whales" has less to do with either of them actually CARING about whales than those two HATING Indians. Both have long anti-enviormental records. They are rated really low in their enviornmental voting records. As an example: A few months ago, on a Kosovo Relief Bill, Sen. Gorton rammed through a rider for one of his "friends", Battlemountain Gold. This bill was to bypass the Enviornmental Protection Agency and force through a gold mine in Eastern Washington State. This mine, the Crown Jewell Mine, plans to use CYANIDE to leech out the gold. And it will sit very close to a tributary of the Columbia River. The Columbia, for those who don't know, is the fourth longets in the US, traveling from British Columbia through Eastern Washington, and down along the border between Oregon and washington. If a cyanide spill occurs, Eastern Washington and parts of Oregon will be TOAST! Think about the cyanide spill in europe a few months ago and that's what we'll have. But few ARAs seem to care about the lives of THOSE animals. What a bunch of flaming hypocrits!

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
24.05.2000

Paul Watson engages in character assassination as a standard instinctive reaction to criticism. Paul calls me a "hatemonger" without a single example. I hate Paul's lies, his deceptions, his manipulations, but not Paul Watson the man. Sea Shepherd is a corrupt cult headed by a megalomaniac, but I don't hate Sea Shepherd, its staff, or its members, some of whom are well-intentioned. Paul alleges, with no evidence whatever, that I'm on the payroll of the Wise Use Movement. This is a neo-McCarthyite smear tactic which Paul's pals have used before: throw enough mud and hope that some of it might stick. "Greenpeace Beds Down with Wise Users"

In fact, Paul's political allies Metcalf and Gorton are wheelhorses of the Wise Use Movement and even more sinister racist groups.

When SS PR flack Frank Trinkle falsely accused me of lying about the Faroes, I took the chance to research some international law. The result is posted on Usenet, alt.animals.whales, A proposed brief for arrest and prosecution of the pirate vessel "Ocean Warrior"

Paul, you brag "We are the pirates who prey upon the pirates." That theory is as much grandiose phony baloney as any of your other lies. Only ships of nations are authorized to act under UN Law. Read the brief before you start playing chicken this time?

Red Dear
reddear@peace
20.05.2000

I was looking through the archives and found this post....gotta love it!!!!

I propose that the United Nations pass a resolution legalizing the complement of a seal hunt - an international hunt for Norwegian, Canadian and Japanese Whalers, Sealers and their Government Supporters. (This would be approved by all countries to make it legal, of course).

Just to make it fair, the participating countries would ship the Whalers, Sealers and Government Supporters out to the Arctic zones and dump them, ( stripped of their clothing ) onto ice floes. Then before they freeze to death ( we always must keep this a humane operation, of course, and those are NOT tears of pain, they are simply the way some primates excrete salt from their primate eyelids- that statement is BACKED UP by our scientific research teams, and is not an excuse for the slobbering greed and cruelty of the Fish and Marine Mammal Industry), all the countries would have a happy time with their newly modernized "Norwegian Whaler and Sealer & Government friends Boats", skinning the whalers, seals and Norwegian officials alive, impaling them on boat hooks, castrating them, and generally having an uproarious time of it observing their cries of agony and pain, just like what happens in the actual seal hunts!!! Sponsored by: The Nation of World Marine Mammals Brian.Pike@usa.net Park City, Utah USA

Jon_____
  /////
20.05.2000

I see very little about conservation, only the type of unsubstanciated and false claims of how you plan to benefit the whales that hunters use all over the world to justify their combination of pleasure with butchery.

Rajneesh
cowboy@delhi.com.in
20.05.2000

Please help save the cows, the sacred whales of the land. It is not permitted by UN or USofA treaty to kill the cow. Cows are gifts of God for milk and dung and medicinal urine, not for Big Mac or other comestible consumption. Also, cattle are known in the language of the Vedic peoples as: those holy creatures whose flesh if eaten produces arteriosclerosis and mental weakness. My homeland is peaceful; we would never use nuclear weapons on our Islamic neighbors without sufficient provocation and even then only on days ending in the letter "Y". Namaste, Rajneesh.

Takayuki Kono
raiun@mtf.biglobe.ne.jp
20.05.2000

One of the favorite line of anti-whalers is to mixing up murder with use of animals. They typically employ this tactic when we talk about culture and tradition, as like "Whale Lover"'s post on 18.05.2000 and "save the whales..."'s post on the same day.

Now, Whale Lover and save the whales..., were you satisfied you could wholly express your discriminating thought? Didn't you aware your posts was not convincing at all but rather disgusting?

It is a pity that somebody murdered the people who already occupied the continent of America long before somebody came there. I don't care if we should call it a culture or a tradition. But it is ridiculous to confound it with any form of using an animal (sorry animals, but we must do it to live). Do we have to be arrested if we eat teriyaki chicken burger, or if it is a whale meat? Is a cattleman committing a same crime with a murderer?

And, you shouldn't kill a Makah tribe, you shouldn't harm them, you shouldn't insult them, or harass them by saying you would harm them. You can't do it, if you a human.

debbieredbear
nospammo
19.05.2000

Gee, savethewhales! Couldn't you find anymore stereotypes to throw in your racist diatribe? So you think that the Makah people should preserve their culture by sleeping in TEPEES???? What an idiot. The Makah's are not Plains Indians. They never HAD tepees. Most of your "facts" must have come from some outdated funny book. It is only when we have to read/listen to racist stereotypes that we call people racist. So have a good look in the mirror and you'll find one. If you were just interested in saving the whales, you wouldn't need to bring in all of those racist stereotypes. I have friends who fundamentally disagree with whaling. But they have NEVER used name calling and stereotyping to get there point across. They use real arguments.

anders Jelmert
lilland@sensewave.com
19.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare, First a correction of an error of my own. In a previous post I referred to the N.A. *grey* whale, when I of course was meaning the N.A. *right* whale. The former is BTW the only larger Cetacean (species *or* population) thought to have become extinct in historical times. There are however some incertainties on the species affiliation as discussed in Mead and Mitchell (1984). Now to the mtDNA and cultural inheritance issue. I am well aware of the paper by Whitehead (1998), which I have read. When calling the hypothesis speculative, I was not referring to your erronous explanation of the issue, but to the paper itself. Besides having read the paper, I have also read some rather strong critique. Interested (and able) readers can find a set of responses at http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/284/5423/2055a Besides pointing to weak statistical power of the study, the main problem is the failure to address and rule out alternative hypotheses.

References:

Whitehead, H. 1998, Science,_282_:1708

Mead, J. G. and E. D. Mitchell. 1984. Atlantic gray whales. pp. 33-52. In: M. L. Jones, L., J. S. Leatherwood, and S. L. Swartz (eds.), The Gray Whale, Eschrichtius robustus (Lilljeborg, 1861). Academic Press, Inc. New York.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
19.05.2000

The source of information I presented previously regarding Paul Watson stranding his crew is found in the book "SEAL WARS! An American Viewpoint" by Janice Scott Henke. the section I referred to is on the bottom of page 132 where it says in part:

"......which he [Paul Watson] abandoned to his quite frightened and apprehensive crew. Watson tried to escape arrest by walking on the ice to Cape Breton, where he was apprehended..."

Now, of course the SSCS office is going to deny this but I would suggest anyone caring to dispute this to buy the book, go the library and check it out, and then verify the sources of this material. Watson has said previously to never answer a question it is not in your best interest to answer. Remember that always when dealing with the SSCS.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
18.05.2000

And you sickos in the so called whale movement want us to think you aren't racists after Whale Lover's post????

Whale Lover
Whale_Lover@Heart
18.05.2000

Well, I already entered this comment in the guest book, but it seems someone decided to censor it so I will try again.

Following along the same lines as the Makah argument with regards to their hunt being a proud tradition they are following...my ancestors settled the west, does that mean I should also follow their tradition and go out and harvest some Indians? Not so logical hmm? For 250 years, some North American Indians were considered savages, now thanks to the Makah tribe you know why. Yes they need to "reclaim" some of their traditions but it can't be said that is what they are doing in this case since now they are relying on modern technology which is not a part of their "proud" tradition. Ringlet woman, I think the treatment your people receive on the water is fair, they hunt whales and the environmentalists hunt them, it is the new ecological equilibrium!

Whale Lover
Whale_Lover@Heart
18.05.2000

Well, I already entered this comment in the guest book, but it seems someone decided to censor it so I will try again.

Following along the same lines as the Makah argument with regards to their hunt being a proud tradition they are following...my ancestors settled the west, does that mean I should also follow their tradition and go out and harvest some Indians? Not so logical hmm? For 250 years, some North American Indians were considered savages, now thanks to the Makah tribe you know why. Yes they need to "reclaim" some of their traditions but it can't be said that is what they are doing in this case since now they are relying on modern technology which is not a part of their "proud" tradition. Ringlet woman, I think the treatment your people receive on the water is fair, they hunt whales and the environmentalists hunt them, it is the new ecological equilibrium!

Kinglet Woman
Kinglet Woman@aol.com
18.05.2000

Our morning prayers of gratitude to to the U.S. Coast Guard, who daily risk their lives to protect our kin the Makah from those who would murder them. It is murder to ram or attempt to swamp canoes of our People who are following the meaningfully integrated traditions of millenia; these acts are comparable to shooting down those who participate in the Sun Dance. Eurocentric religious fanatics may be pitied, but when they attempt to kill us, they must be stopped. We are grateful.

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
18.05.2000

urban

Perhaps you will find the following facts also "wonderful", I however find it disturbing.

The Bowhead Whale is now an endangered species throughout the world because of excessive whaling, which severely depleted the stocks of Bowhead Whales.

The bowhead whales' continued survival is in question, they are threatened by a variety of causes, such as habitat loss; reduced availability of food from over-fishing; and pollution. Sometimes a species declines for unknown reasons; it nonetheless serves as a indicator of the overall health of an ecosystem.

The bowhead whale population of Alaska's coast appears to be recovering but remains a fraction of its former size. The status of the other bowhead stocks is less well known. These stocks are thought to be very small, probably in the low hundreds.

urban
mohandis82
18.05.2000

Oceanna:

"Levels of equality"? Fascinating notion: I think it's been forwarded before...oddly enough, also in the context of a more 'enlightened perspective'. Didn't work out too badly, I hear, at least not for those who considered themselves on the higher level (oddly enough, come to think of it, the same ones who forwarded the notion in the first place! Fascinating!!); pity about the ones who were considered lower down, though. Always disturbing to find out the old notion persists; even more disturbing to see it emerge in the context of ecology. You ultimately place value in whales, because, in your words, they are here to "assist humans in their climb up the evolutionary ladder"; in other words, you place a higher value on whales primarily because of their utility to humanity; because they provide something you feel we need.

You will thus be pleased to learn that they also provide fatty acids to address the specific needs of people who have co-evolved with them for centuries. How wonderful that a single whale will feed an entire community, and a single family for a season. How wonderful that among some whaling cultures, the whale will come in a dream, offering itself as a gift; The yupik eskimo of Chukotka, in the Siberian arctic have a saying: "when the bowhead is brought in, peace and harmony also come to the village". You cannot understand the importance of whales to such people. Do not presume to sit in judgement of traditions you know nothing of. Do not be so 'supercilious' as to lecture peoples with millenia of direct ecological, spiritual and essential co-existence with whales on the topic of their 'true nature'. You are right, Oceanna; whales are incredible, and worthy of our respect. They are also essential to a great many traditional diets; you should respect these equally, and avoid the mistakes of your ancestors.

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
18.05.2000

Again, a Blessing upon Paul and the crew members who risk their lives to serve and protect our kin in the sea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May the sea remain calm before you.

May the wind be always at your back.

May the sun shine warm upon your face.

May your heart be as light as a song.

May your joys be as deep as the oceans,

your troubles as light as its foam.

And may you find, sweet peace of mind, where ever you may roam.

Health and a long life to you!

Namaste,

~Oceanna~

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
18.05.2000

Anders Jelmert

You may strongly disagree that the species I mentioned are vulnerable but you would be far out numbered by the majority of marine biologists in the world, except for perhaps those that live in whaling nations, as they have their own agendas. Your ridiculous statement that river dolphins are the only cetaceans REALLY endangered in these days, clearly illustrates your limited knowledge and renders you an unworthy opponent to even debate this issue...so this will be my last response to you.

Starvation has not been proven to be the cause of the recent mass strandings of the Gray Whales, so I think you are jumping to conclusions. There are other factors that have to be considered, such as the US navy's LFAS. If it turns out that starvation is a factor, I suspect it would be due to humans depleting the food stock of the Whales, not the over population of the Whales...again if humans would stop raping the oceans we wouldn't be in this mess.

As for your statement regarding humans leaving nature to itself and the consequences...first of all we both know that this is an impossibility so why bother to theorize what would happen. There will always be threats to Whales from barbarians who think it is acceptable to slaughter Whales, regardless if International Law forbids it. Then there are the threats from the US navy, along with threats from humans, the degradation of inshore habitat, caused by industrial activity and offshore dumping, the noise and disturbance caused by human activities, and pollution from oil and other toxic substances. The fact that many whales feed by skimming plankton from the surface of the water increases their vulnerability to foreign substances.

So in a "perfect" world then maybe we would have to give this some consideration but it is ridiculous to assume that whales will over populate the seas if they are not hunted as humans have already made that an impossibility with their actions. An example of this is the Right Whale, which although protected from commercial whaling since 1937, has not made a recovery in any sense of the word. It is one of the rarest Whales in the world with an estimate of less than 350 left, so you see just because humans are not hunting Whales does not mean they will over populate the seas...far from it!

You state "As you should know, the family groups are mainly mothers/sisters with offspring, and nothing very like the human family pattern)." Now perhaps they are not like your human family but I know of many extended families where mother/daughter or even sister co-habitate. Although this may not be as prevalent today it was often the case a hundred years ago. And if we go back even further before patriarchy took hold of our culture, it is believed that that is exactly how humans lived, a matriarchal culture...groups of females, sisters, mothers and children with the males living in their own group but still socializing with the group of females and children.

And finally, my statement of the hitchhiking mitochondrial DNA was not an unconfirmed suggestion but a fact released from a study done on Whales. It was reported in the journal Science as well as from the Rueters News Agency and in the Globe and Mail on Friday November 27, 1998.

It is obvious that Cetaceans are not your kin, that would indeed be an insult to them as you are not anywhere near their level of consciousness...I don't expect you to be able to comprehend that fact this life time but perhaps in one of your future attempts at consciousness evolution you will see the light. Good luck!

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
18.05.2000

urban How supercilious of you to assume you have an inkling of what I'd like to be! But then I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your statement since your posts also reflect this arrogance. You obviously are not able to grasp the idea I am putting forth as evidenced by your statements.

First of all, I never said that equality cannot be found in diversity, it can be. But there are also many levels of equality and diversity and I don't measure them by human standards but by the consciousness of a species, whether mineral, plant, animal or human. And just because one species may be lower in consciousness does not mean it is any less important, just less conscious, living its life on a different level or even dimension if you like than those of a higher consciousness. For example a plant when pulled from the ground would not experience the death energy to the same degree that a whale would when it is mutilated and tortured to death. Humanity is not necessarily the yardstick for measuring consciousness as here again we are a diversified lot...everything from enlightened beings to those that are still "asleep" or not fully conscious, some may say the whalers fit this later group ;)

save the whales...
k_lordan@yahoo.com
18.05.2000

I’m tired of people playing the race card when it comes to the slaughtering of whales.Is it our fault that the Japanese and Makah tribe is not white but are interested in slaughtering whales? I'm sorry they have sick ceremonial cultures they wish to continue. We could all say we wish to continue our cultures but this is the year 2000.The English use to cut peoples heads off. When the white man came to this country he killed Indians. It had been 70+ years since the Makah killed a whale. It is all about greed. Look at the facts…The Indians still wish the American taxpayers to support them. They live tax free, they have their own tribal laws and police and they want tax paying citizens to protect their rights of a treaty from the 1800’s to slaughter whales? The Makah tribe claim they are doing this because it is their custom and part of their culture. However they don't have a problem using modern day technology, such as a web site, cell phones, and guns to shoot whales. This is not about ceremonial culture. It was not part of their culture to not drink but funny how they enjoy alcohol – something the white man brought to this country. The Makah use their so-called “tradition” as an excuse to slaughter whales. If they are interested in preserving their culture why aren't they sleeping in tepees? They don't have a problem using the comforts of a modern day society to better their lives. Hypocrites! Why wont the Makah fess up to the real reason they are killing whales? GREED!

marvin sam
marvsam@hotmail.com
18.05.2000

Very disturbed by the religious beliefs of so many of Paul Watson's devotees. It seems that any charismatic person can become a "leader" these days.

Whales are no more, no less evolved than any other creature here on earth--no more or less than the plant nation, the tree nation, even the stone people. Only people completely steeped in the euro-American tradition of hierarchies can instant on the old "some are more equal and less equal than others."

The Evil Mike Two Horses
certainorg@uswest.net
18.05.2000

I see that Phil (Seawolf) learned how to spell the URL for the guestbook. Phil needs to develop a sense of humor, but I realize that it's unfair to ask of him something so beyond his grasp. But since Phil wants to make himself the issue, let's look at the facts:

Phil, next time you think someone's made a threat against you on the Internet, call the appropriate authority, the FBI.

Phil likes to call anyone who doesn't agree with him a "commie." Note the link to the Socialist Party website, suggesting that all us Injuns are affiliated with them. Personally, I'm closer to the Libertarians on most things. But Phil needs bogeymen on the outside of his head that will match the ones on the inside.

It's an undeniable fact that if you associate with, and make deals with racists, that if you use racist rhetoric and racial stereotypes, you're probably going to be called a racist (Phil doesn't understand this causal chain...).

The Shrub (George W. Bush, Jr.) is probably the only person on this planet with less understanding of American Federal Indian Law than Phil has. Bush can posture all he wants, but Congress has the last say on Indian policy. Bush could not put a stop to the Makah hunt through Executive Order if he wanted to; the Supreme Court would put a stop to it in about 24 hours.

That last comment doesn't even rate mention. Phil spends a lot of time looking in the mirror and pretending he's Robert DeNiro in "Taxi Driver."

See ya, Phil.

mth

Anders Jelmert
lilland@sensewave.com
18.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare, It is nice to see that we do agree on some issues, e.g. that some whales are endangerd. Let me add that the interpretation of the terms endangered, threatened and/or vulnerable do vary considerably, and are dependent on who is using them. While I will acknowledge that some stoks (or populations if you prefer) of e.g. killer whale, fin whale and humpback whale might be characterised by one of the former terms, I do strongly disagree that these species are anything close to vulnerable considered as species.

I am well aware of the news regarding the significant increase of stranded migrating grey whales. As the North East Pacific stock of grey whales has recovered to pre-whaling densities, starvation events is of course to be expected. Let us assume that humans "leaved the nature to itself" as quite some posters have argued from time to time. Let me ask you: do you think the whale populations will grow infinitely? What will eventually stop the growth? Would you e.g. consider increased predation and /or slow starvation to be more "humane" than whaling"

If you read my post again you will see that I indeed specified the North Atlantic stock of the grey whale as the only marine cetacean likely to be endangered (well let us add the blue whale as a species until newer counts becomes available).

Habitat destruction/limitation was specified as a problem for river dolphins (the only cetaceans REALLY endangered in these days)

Anders Jelmert
lilland@sensewave.com
18.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare, You stated:<So perhaps every species of Whale is not at the moment an endangered species but that would soon change if the ban on whaling was lifted and it resumed on a large/commerical scale....that is not even debatable..> You statement is indeed debatable. The demise of the great whales was the very reason why the ICRW was established in 1946. The initial failure of said organisation was in my opinion mainly a gravely mistaken regulation regime based on so-called BWU, -blue whale units. In place of making the whaling operation economically prohibitive when apopulation dwindeled, the whaling fleet could under the BWU regime simply switch to (and supplement the catch) with other species, thus bringing the population to a much lower number than single species quotas would have led to.

The continued slow recovery of some species in the southern Oceans can likely be attributed to at least one important factor, the infidelity of reports from covert whaling operations of the former Soviet Union. ......

Neither in today's, nor in the future's harvest the whalers will police themselves.

You then state: <And of course this does not even address the issue that the Cetaceans are our equals so why are you murdering them when you would not do the same to your family/kin? Can you not see that they are also our kin?>

The brief answer to your question is : no, the whales are not our kin. Your question speaks volumes of your knowledge of our own species.

Anders Jelmert
anders.jelmert@imr.no
18.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare, In a reply to Urban you stated : <Now perhaps you are only a child and so are not knowledgeable about Cetaceans, so I will forgive your ramblings on ecology. Whales and humans are equal on the evolutionary scale and have many similarities. Whales live in closely knit groups of family members just as we do, with the babies staying close to their mothers for many many years.> After having taken Urban to task for "ramblings on ecology", you continue by producing an evolutionary argument (which BTW is grossly erronous, -evolutionary speaking whales are VERY, VERY distant from humans). You then continue by stating : <Whales live in closely knit groups of family members just as we do, with the babies staying close to their mothers> , which is an argument based on whales behaviour (In itself fairly correct for a number of cetacean species, but not very correct for most others. As you should know, the family groups are mainly mothers/sisters with offspring, and nothing very like the human family pattern).

Before trying to explain the mechanisms behind evolutionary selection (your explanation does seem quite Lamarckian to me), and especially the unconfirmed suggestion of hitchiking genes, you should perhaps get a stronger grip on terms like ecology, evolution and behaviour. Finally, you do not suggest that mitochondrial DNA are inherited from the father of any mammals, do you?

SEAWOLF
seawolf100@webtv.net
18.05.2000

Well a few more facts that Spaulding has left out. He personally threatened my life over Christmas. He invited me tyo a y2k black goat satanic ritual, with me as the sacrifice. Seattle Police have this in their hands and they deem it as a legitimate threat Now Spaulding and others have threatened other folks who are on this so-called forum as well.

All this racism bullshit is getting old, and most of the public are ignoring all you guys on your posts calling people racists.It s a fact the whalers are aligned with socialists etc. go to www.socialism.com to find out.

It is also an undeniable fact that whoever calls folks racists because of their beliefs, then it is a fact they have lost the argument and racist is the only term they can see.

I got a feeling that GW Bush just might put a stop to the Makah whale hunt when he gets elected to office, which he will. Better pack up your bags and join the welfare lines, Jason, you will need it.

The whalers are nothing but scumbags

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
17.05.2000

Rebecca---you see that is part of the problem as I see it. Watson and his supporters have no problem at all spouting all types of smears against other people but then somehow think it is "beneath" you to "debate" what has been spread.

Why do you think you should be able to say whatever you want, regardless of how unfounded your positions are, and then rise "above" the people who are the targets of your propoganda. (read lies)

Rebecca Monaghan
M97007@aol.com
17.05.2000

The reason I made that statement regarding the Pilot whale slaughter was because I am not focused on the Makah hunt only. I have nothing to prove to you. I didn't know that posting on here had to piss people off. Most of you on here like to argue. I am not going to get anywhere with trying to argue with you. Just for the record...Paul Watson NEVER sent me here! I am sure he has much more important things to do with his time than waste it here debating humans should save whales.

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

Rebecca

I don't know who has contacted you, but it was not me; it is unfortunate that you have been called a racist moron. Nonetheless, one cannot help but note that you have yet to provide anything substantial to this guestbook: when one ignores your rather tiresome cheerleading on behalf of your boss, paul watson, nothing much is left of your posts. Why bother to mention the numbers of pilot whales killed in the Faroes? It is clear that you would not support the death of even a single whale. You need to work harder at being clear; everyone who reads your posts knows the extremism of your position, so why the charade? To balance your attempt to cause alarm at the prospect of the hunting of 2000 pilot whales, I would like to point out that this is 2000 whales from a population of 778,000. In other words, the Faroese harvest represent slightly less than 0.4% of the population. Perhaps you could distance yourself from your more blunt detractors, and engage this, or one of the many other points of fact generously and patiently provided to you by others on this guestbook. Maybe then you would get the sort of replies you feel you deserve. Just a suggestion. Take care.

Rebecca Monaghan
M97007@aol.com
17.05.2000

I am not surprised at the numerous people on here who have contacted me personally and tried to insult me. I am now a "racist moron" according to you. I am sure the Makah tribe would like to think they are the priority of all us anti-whaling groups, but they're not. If the Makah were the biggest threat today then the whales just might have a chance. The Pilot whale slaughtering is by far the worst. 2,000 Pilot whales(including calfs) along with Orcas and Dolphins are led into a shallow bay in the Farose Islands and are brutally stabbed to death. Children are present during this event. Most children particapate by leading the injured Pilot whales onto land and covering their blow holes until they die. These animals deserve more from us humans. I am ashamed to be apart of the human race. I pray for you Paul Watson on your journey to the save the Pilot whales once and for all!!

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

Ahhh...oceanna, you're not as deep as you'd like to be... All that you remain unable to grasp is outlined in my earlier posts. I am sympathetic to your plight, but hold out the hope that sometime in the future, you will at long last outgrow the notion that equality has anything to do with sameness: look around you, and find equality in diversity...then, perhaps, you will cease to hold humanity up as a yardstick. Are you so blind that you cannot see that notions like "society", "culture" and the like, are impositions upon the non-human? Until you can discard humanity as the basis for your analogous method of determining the relative value of this or that species, you are stumbling about in a darkness which, sadly, you have mistaken for wisdom.

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
17.05.2000

urban

Your posts clearly demonstrate that it is you that is totally unaware of the interconnectedness of life. Yes it is true that every life form, from a rock to a plant to a animal has a spirit, some more evolved than others. You state that all life is conscious which is true to a point. There are many different states of consciousness and not all life forms are of the same state of consciousness. However, Whales, and they are the only other species that we know of at this time, are equal to humans in terms of consciousness. They are more advanced than that of any land-dwelling non-human mammals.

Now perhaps you are only a child and so are not knowledgeable about Cetaceans, so I will forgive your ramblings on ecology. Whales and humans are equal on the evolutionary scale and have many similarities. Whales live in closely knit groups of family members just as we do, with the babies staying close to their mothers for many many years. Cultural behaviour in Whales is passed on through generations in genes just as in humans, they are the only other species on the planet that can do this. For example, if a Whale gets an idea, such as a better way to find food or defend itself against predators, it is able to pass this idea on to other members of its group. After many generations, the Whales in that group will have similar genes that have been passed down to them from the first Whale that had the new idea. Studies have found that genes in the mitochondrial DNA cells are similar in all groups of the species even though the teaching takes place only in one group. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down from mother to offspring, virtually untouched by the father's genes, that is how research teams have been able to track the culture of Whales. This phenomenon is known as molecular hitchhiking and scientists are totally amazed that Whales are able to do this.

So you see I am not claiming a higher morality, but simply stating facts. Whales are our equals. You would not kill your family for food, I assume? So how can you justify killing Whales for food when they as a species are just as conscious as human beings?

As I stated before, I do not expect those of you with a whaling mentality to be able to comprehend the full ramifications of this. But I post with the hope that perhaps somewhere in the minds of a whaler reading this board, a light will flicker on and finally they will realize the full atrocity of their actions...and if even one person wakes up and becomes conscious, then it will have made it worth while.

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
17.05.2000

anders.jelmert

So perhaps every species of Whale is not at the moment an endangered species but that would soon change if the ban on whaling was lifted and it resumed on a large/commerical scale....that is not even debatable...we have seen what has happened in regards to this matter. Whalers certainly cannot be trusted to police themselves. And of course this does not even address the issue that the Cetaceans are our equals so why are you murdering them when you would not do the same to your family/kin? Can you not see that they are also our kin?

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
17.05.2000

anders.jelmert

You are correct that at this moment in time not all the species of Whales are endangered but many are endangered, threatened and/or vulnerable...such as the Fin Whale, Blue Whale, Bowhead Whale, Right Whale, Humpback Whale, Killer Whale. As for your statement: "grey whale and the minke whale, respectively, are not at all treathened in any meaningful interpretation of the word." Perhaps you have not been following the news lately? Very recently, there have been numerous strandings of the Gray Whales causing concern among scientists who previously thought the Gray Whale population was on its way to full recovery...now they are not so sure.

And for your information, the Right Whale is not considered a vulnerable species but an endangered species. There is a difference and if you are unaware of them I can post them at a later date. There are three populations of Right Whales in the world: one in the North Pacific, a second in the North Atlantic, and the third in the Southern hemisphere. All three populations were hunted to near extinction by the 19th century. That is why they are endangered, not "due to habitat destruction/limitation and the latter by entanglement in fishing gear and collision with freighter vessels." as you state. As a matter of fact, that is how they received their name Right Whale, because they were the "right Whale" to hunt because they were a very easy target.

Kii yaa tuk It is not just a spiritual belief I have about Whales, it has been proven scientifically that they are as advanced a species as us...unlike cows. So where do we as a society draw the line? Are you going to kill and eat your family? Somehow I doubt it...and if you did you would be charged with murder. I did not expect those of you that are whalers to be able to comprehend this fact but the fact is that Whales are our equals in every way...and yet you see nothing wrong with killing them? If you can't understand what is wrong with this picture than it is not likely you will get it this time around...better luck on your climb up the evolutionary ladder your next life cycle my friend.

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
17.05.2000

Well Mike Two-Horses-Crooked-Legs

seawolf
seawolf100@webtv.net
17.05.2000

Well I make no bones about it, I joined up with SSCS and Paul Watson has the right to do what ever he deems necessary to rescue these creatures. What we need is more people with guts that are like him. Greenpeace is a bunch of wimps How about them sending their ships to help stop these hunts.

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

Oceanna Del Mar: Despite your apparent inability to grasp the notion of ecology, you cannot be blamed: you're a product of a mindset that puts one thing before another, that allows you to hide behind false distinctions to ease your conscience. And no one will seek to make you do things differently: if you choose, you may continue on, claiming a higher morality. But you will be lying to yourself, and ultimately, in perpetuating an unbalanced view of nature,doing more to hasten the demise of the fragile planetary ecology than you think.

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

And by the way, which cetaceans are closest to your consciousness? The Minke whales who devour helpless fish (yep, you guessed it...conscious creatures with spirits too)? The transient killer whales who leap upon mother and calf alike, biting out the belly and tongue, leaving the rest to rot?? Or do you merely connect with those imagined, airbrushed whales, always smiling, hovering somewhere in the back of your mind, somewhere, apparently, close to where you keep your abundant supply of arrogance. Take a walk, for pete's sake; go out to your vegetable garden, if you even have one, and tell me that there is more wonder in a whale than in a growing plant, or the complicated balance of birds, bugs, slugs, and worms. And if by chance you should manage at last to see that EVERYTHING is wondrous, full of spirit, and worthy of respect, do you suppose you'll still eat supper tonight?

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

To Oceanna del mar:

ALL life is sacred: together, every part of this planet interconnects to form the "meta-mind", or, as some like to put it, Gaia. ALL life is conscious: don't believe for a moment that your shallow, speciesist prejudice changes this essential fact. When you eat a plant, something dies at your hand. Something alive: something that is a part of this web of life. Something that has a spirit. The same with whales: the same with cockroaches. So please, spare us the holier-than-though myopic rants; it is clear from your posts that you are ill equipped to understand the notion of interconnectedness.

urban
mohandis82
17.05.2000

Rebecca You sound an awfully like the same Rebecca who acts as a monitor on the Sea Shepherd chat room; which doesn't matter all that much, given that your vapid posts don't present much of a challenge to anyone's thinking, but I think you should be forthright about your connections to Sea Shepherd. Looks like paul has sent forth an array of flunkies to blunder about: the full might of the SS revealed!! Can you people really do no better than name-calling and mundane contrariness?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
17.05.2000

Rebecca:

Were you onboard any of the Makah canoes? Were you in any of the Makah schools or facilities that received death threats, harassment, and racial slurs?

Have you ever been onboard the Norwegian ships that have been reportedly booby trapped?

Have you ever read any of the Seattle Times articles for how the public perceives you?

Or is Sheena correct is stating that you are oblivious to any outsiders? I don't understand closed minds, perhaps you can explain it to me.

Rebecca Monaghan
M97007@aol.com
16.05.2000

What I find to be completely amazing is how many people on here seem to THINK they know EVERYTHING about Paul's life. Were you part of the crew that was abandoned by Paul? I highly doubt it. Do you believe ALL the rumors you hear? Do you just sit home all day making up stories about Paul Watson? I really hope there is more to your life than that.

anders.jelmert
lilland@sensewave.com
16.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare,

Why do you use "Whales" as a generic term in an extinction context? There are more than 70 species, and currently only a handful of these are really threatened with extinction. This is in particulare several species of river dolphins. The most vulnerable marine species would likely be the North-West Altantic stock of right whales. The former are threatened due to habitat destruction/limitation and the latter by entanglement in fishing gear and collision with freighter vessels. The species the Makahs, the Norwegians and the Japanese hunts, which are the grey whale and the minke whale, respectively, are not at all treathened in any meaningful interpretation of the word. Where did you get the impression that whales in general were endangered?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
16.05.2000

Sheena:

For once, I have to agree with an animal rightist. I bet you are right Sheena in saying that Paul Watson "doesn't give a fig about what anyone says."

That's exactly the problem with the whole animal rights movement, you don't care (or even listen) about what any else says or believes. You demonize anyone critical of anything you do.

I get posts and email on my board all the time from your crowd that have no relation to anything.

So, in this Sheena, I agree with you.

Sheena Lake
SheenaLake@aol.com
16.05.2000

We have only Kii yi Tuk's word for it that Paul Watson is a liar. It seems to me that Kii Yi Tuk is the one spinning the lies here. I don't think Captain Watson gives a fig for what anyone says anyways - he's busy using his ship to interfere with whalers. I called the Sea Shepherd office about this story about Watson abandoning his crew. There is no substance to it. Kii yi Tuk or whatever your name is - I think you are the liar.

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
16.05.2000

Oceanna de la Mare---In one post you went from saying it was perfectly acceptable for people to slaughter cattle due to their sustainability even knowing a cow is a sacred animal to some people all the way to the other end of the spectrum in saying that because you have this spiritual belief about whales that somehow you are able to impose that belief upon others.

How is it so easy for you to totally disregard and dispose of other people's beliefs and yet at the same time demand an involuntary submission to yours? Doesn't this appear to be arrogant and self righteous to you?

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
16.05.2000

Rebecca Monaghan---Paul Watson had dedicated his life to emotional exploitations of people like you. Even when you see here with your own eyes his total inability to keep from contradicting himself (read lies) directed towards other people you respond from a purely emotional point of view and refuse to see you give your support to a man and a "cause" based upon misinformation, racism, and cultural elitism.

Paul Watson has no honor and has himself stated he will use any means to gain media attention. Read his books and you will see what he thinks of his "supporters". In fact he once abandoned his crew for he himself to avoid arrest. You think a person like that is a hero?

Oceanna de la Mare
oceanna@hotmail.com
16.05.2000

Cows are not in danger of becoming extinct...unlike many species of Whales. And I don't have anything against killing and eating animals for survival, although I myself am a vegetarian and choose not to, but if done in a sacred manner, giving thanks to the spirit of the animal then I think it is alright to do. However, man has lost connection to his spirituality and so this is seldom done.

Having said that....Whales are an exception...would you kill your mother or sister or brother and eat them just because you could? I think not. As far as I am concerned Whales are in this category, they are my kin even though long ago they took to the sea when we chose to remain on land...(although some say perhaps we also came from the seas....as in the aquatic ape theory.) Regardless, they are more than our equals, they are far more intelligent and spiritually advanced than we are..I realize this may be too much of a stretch for the brains of the whalers to even begin to comprehend but Whales do serve a very important function on this planet...and no, it is not as a source of food.

They are here as Guardians of the earth to watch over the planet and it's inhabitants and assist us in our climb up the evolutionary ladder. Those of us closer to Cetaceans in consciousness understand, and perhaps some day the whalers will also understand...we can always hope.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
16.05.2000

But why should anyone get in the way of a harpoon? Do you get in the way of the sharks?

Rebecca Monaghan
M97007@aol.com
16.05.2000

I am completely disgusted at how some of the people on here are treating Paul Watson. He has dedicated his life to saving whales, dolphins, and seals and YOU are judging him? How many people do you know that has risked their lives to save these mammals from being violently slaughtered? Do you have the balls to put yourself between a harpoon and a Sperm whale in hopes of saving the whale from being stabbed in the back? Paul has put his life at risk to save another living creature from death. Where is the crime in that?

Anders Jelmert
anders.jelmert@sensewave.com
15.05.2000

To Sheena; If you really try to accomplish something, for example to change the views of your opponents, -would you think pissing them off is an effective strategy? I have really become a bit curious about your grandfather's occupation. :-)

To Ellen, Are you suggesting that the question whether an action is illegal or not is of little importance? Would you consider demanding evidence for what you regard to be a serious and false accusation, to be nit picking?

Now cows are sacred for many Hindus. Slaughthering and consuming them is utterly reprehensible to them. Do you think it is reasonable for hindus to start vigilante actions e.g. in Germany or US. to stop a practice they consider a sacrilege?

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
15.05.2000

Let's see, what do we see? Some more anonymous persons with personal attacks and vulgar language...

If they are so proud of what they do, why do they still wear hoods? Why hide who they are? Are they ashamed?

The hoods must be why they don't answer questions-- not only does it hide their identity, it keeps them from seeing and hearing other people. All they know or care about is their own narrow view, and everyone else is demonized.

Control freaks, control yourselves first.

Mermaiden
__________
15.05.2000

Well Said Sheena! Paul, you are doing a terrific job! Don't let the ramblings of an insignificant few bother you...although I doubt they would ;)..there are many of us who are very grateful for everything you do. Thank you for your service to our kin of the sea, the Cetacean.

Sheena Lake
SheenaLake@aol.com
15.05.2000

My grand-father once told me that you are truely being effective if you are pissing people off. Paul Watson appears to be very effective. He sure is pissing off the whalers and as far as I'm concerned, that's OK with me. I can't believe how incredibly stupid some of these anti-Watson ravings are.

Ellen
nope!
15.05.2000

My god but you whale hunters are an anal retentive lot! You constantly nit pick hoping to grasp at any tiny itsy bitsy piece of evidence to somehow justify your slaughter of these magnificant creatures whose intelligence far exceeds your own! It is no wonder Paul Watson doesn't want to waste his time debating the likes of you...who in their right mind would? He has more important things to do than waste his time growin old with you!

Anders Jelmert
Lilland@sensewave.com
14.05.2000

Mr. Watson,

I find your views on Faeroese and European regulations interesting. Let me see if I have gotten you right. You claim that the pilot whales are protected under the Bonn convention since the Faeroes receive subsidies from the EC-member Denmark. -But on the other hand, when the Makah's asks for a grey whale quota through the US, you are violently against it? Would you care to elaborate?

-and while I'm on line. I have asked Frank Trinkle, and later you, to produce evidence that the Norwegian minke whale hunt is illegal. Would you care to share your evidence?

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
14.05.2000

George - I believe that the Faeroes is covered under the Bonn Convention so long as the Faeroese government receives subsidies from the Danish government. I am well aware that the Faeroes is not a member of the EEC but Denmark is. Under the agreement, Denmark cannot provide subsidies for Fisheries to a protectorate engaged in activities that are in violation of the Bonn Convention.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet
14.05.2000

Hello Paul ,

You say that pilot whales are protected under the Bonn Convention's Agreement on small cetaceans in the North and Baltic seas (ASCOBANS). Are you not aware that this is a regional agreement not covering Faroe waters. You say that the hunts also kill bottlenose dolphins and Orcas, both protected species under the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling. As far as I know no Orcas are killed in any Faroese hunts. Please if you are in the possessions of other information, please provide it! When it comes to bottlenose dolphins I believe that what you really mean is the Northern Bottlenose Whale (Hyperoodon ampullatus). There is a discussion going on whether this is a hunter or whether the animals strand themselves and then are killed. (It only one location where this happens.) In the center of the discussion is the question whether some of the strandings is "assisted". So you might have a point here. But then your campaign should be named a bottlenose whale campaign and not a pilot whale campaign. Before travelling such a long way it should be important to be clear about what is the precise target of your action. You say the Faroese killing methods are banned under the European Wildlife Convention. I am not aware that this agreement is covering the Faroe Islands. I will get back to that point.

Captain Paul Watson
paulwatson@earthlink.net
14.05.2000

Pilot whales are protected under the Bonn Conventio's Agreement on small cetaceans in the North and Baltic seas (ASCOBANS). The Faeroese killing methods are banned under the European Wildlife Convention. The hunts also kill bottlenose dolphins and Orcas, both protected species under the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling.

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet
13.05.2000

Dear Sheena Lake,

Paul Watson did not need an invitation or a challenge to arrive at this debate forum. He has started debates here at his own initiative and then his views have been challenged. Then I think he should respond and not withdraw. He is out making actions you tell us. If he is on his way to the Faroe Islands he might tell us why he has picked this target? It doesn't seem logic at all to me from his statements that he only targes hunts that are in violation with international agreements. When you make actions you really need to put arguments behind it.

Sheena Lake
Sheenalake@aol.com
13.05.2000

Three cheers for Captain Paul Watson. He sure does know what buttoms to push to rile up the whiners. Why would you expect Captain Watson to stoop to debating a bunch of insignificant nobodies like you whale hunt supporters. Captain Watson fights whalers on the high seas not couch potatoes who have nothing better to do with their time than to whine about being ignored.

Sarah
  ?????
13.05.2000

If you would like to view a site with some integrity then check out anti-whaling.com !

Lewis
********
13.05.2000

This site is full of crap! You fail to prove your (weak) points about the sustainability of whaling. Large mammals have been hunted to extinction in the wild on land and sea. What makes you beleive that you can continue this activity without negatively affecting the environment?

Georg Blichfeldt
geobli@trollnet
05/12/00

Hello Paul, 

if my understanding of your position is correct;  -  you only take action against those whaling operations that are in violation with the IWC regulations. Your legitimation of your actions has been that you view yourself as a voluntary and idealistic watch dog - in the absence of formal enforcement arrangements -  seeing to that the international agreements concerning whaling are respected.   But why then do you attack the Faorese pilot whale hunt? This hunt is not covered by IWC regulations. The same goes for the Inuit beluga and narwhale hunt. Your main target this summer is the Faroe hunt. I am looking forward to your explanation.

Paul Watson in this guestbook:
" I very much oppose the Bowhead whale hunt in Alaska but I do not intervene against it because it is sanctioned by the IWC. My record for keeping my actions within the confines of the definition of the regulations of the IWC is also consistent." 

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
05/12/00

Perhaps the most famous quote about beetles comes from the great population geneticist J.B.S. Haldane, who was asked what might be learned about a Creator by examining the world. His response: "an inordinate fondness for beetles" (Fisher, 1988).

So I accept, along with Arthur, the comparison to the humble six-legged. However, Paul's biology is as flawed as his civility, his truthfulness and his courage.

Cockroaches and scarab beetles are only distantly related, of the phylum neoptera.
http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/tree/eukaryotes/animals/arthropoda/hexapoda/neoptera.html
Cockroaches are of the genus dictyoptera http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/tree/eukaryotes/animals/arthropoda/hexapoda/dictyoptera.html
while scarab or dung beetles are of the taxon Coleoptera, or beetles, Scarabaeidae
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/clinic/Bugofwk/970081/dungbeet.htm

 One would think that a purported double professor would know that the ancient Egyptians worshipped the scarab just as the Superwhale Cult worships the whale.

"Why would people worship a dung beetle? To the Egyptians and other ancient civilizations, dung beetles symbolized immortality. They were seen to disappear in the earth, and later to reemerge as though resurrected. The revolving ball of dung was thought to represent the rotation of the earth, rotated by a celestial scarab. "
http://www.letsfindout.com/subjects/bug/rfisacrd.html

Jason Spaulding
kenny_lives_76@yahoo.com
05/12/00

One would think that a scholar would be cautious about asserting "facts" which are not only unproven, but which are provably untrue, such as Mr. Watson's claim that I am an agent of the Wise Use Movement. When asked to produce evidence, Mr. Watson resorts to the cockroach viturperation. When challenged to debate, Mr. Watson declines.

Here's my vocabulary lesson for the polysyllabic megomaniacal Paul, a two-syllable word:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus
                     Entry Word: coward
                     Function: noun
                     Text: one who shows or yields to ignoble fear <a treacherous coward who betrayed his friends to save his own skin>
                     Synonyms: chicken, craven, dastard, funk, funker, poltroon, quitter, yellowbelly
                     Related Word: baby, fraidycat, invertebrate, jellyfish, milksop, scaredy-cat; caitiff, recreant

Arthur Miller
bayou@blarg.net
05/12/00

1. When I first contacted the SS about them joining forces with the Metcalf I was called an "insignificant little person"; I set out to organize an insignificant little people's rebellion.
2. You criticized social justice activists for having their own agenda. All that did was to show that your agenda does not include social justice. 
  3. All the threats of lawsuits, that I told you to go ahead and file, only inflamed those that believe in free speech. 
  4. You stated that I have "a darker agenda.
I would much rather have another agenda than your agenda of racism. 
  5. You called me a hatemonger in order to cause others to hate me. I do hate racism. Racism is wrong in whatever form.
  6. You call those that stand against your racism cockroaches;
we will organize an army of cockroaches. 
  7. You call me scum. From you I take that as a honorable thing. 
I would rather be the scum upon the water of a pond, than be the 
human sewage created by your racism.
 
Everything from the smallest organism to the largest life form is interconnected and balanced between all. There is no race supremacy in the natural world, Captain Paul. It is your industialized world based upon the greed of a few that is knocking the natural world out of balance. 
  You say below that we scatter in the light. Why is it you avoid the light of open and public debate? You live in fear of the light of truth, you and your celebrity supporters. We "nobodies" love the truth.

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
05/11/00

Interesting how the self professed advocate of "all animals are equal" seems to feel the poor cockroach is less equal than others. 

I don't think they care about anything-- animals, people, or possibly even themselves. Self-grandizement.

Also interesting to see the choice of metaphors seem to frequently come right out of the klansmen dictionary... "knuckle draggers, swarm like cockroaches..." 

Kii yaa tuk
kiiyaatuk@centurytel.net
05/11/00

As one of the cockroaches I can only say Paul that you have done a remarkable job in just a few posts of completely illustrating the "contradictions" (read lies, fraud, racism, terrorism) that you have found your "success" in.  And I have to agree with my brother cockroach Arthur that the cockroach army has found your tracks and are everywhere now waiting on your next contradiction. (again read lies, fraud, racism, terrorism)

Time changes Paul from when you could use the soundbites of media---the problem is that you didn't change along with the new era of global communications.  Your free ride is about to come to an end.   Ironic isn't it that a bunch of cockroaches helped ending your dynasty of contradictions enit? (again, read lies, fraud, racism, terrorism)

BTW---tell your friend David Barbarash that between his quotes and yours that there is a great new article I am working on releasing.  Would you like to be on my mailing list or will you just kick a board or rock to find it?

Cya again in another six months.  (yeah right, like your ego can go that long without spewing more of your hate around)  Keep up the good quotes.  

BTW---what is your address of record in Washington for keeping your books?  As a non profit they are open for inspection and copying and I am planning a trip to do just that.   Have you moved your records without notifying the Secretary of State's Office?

urban
mohandis82@hotmail.com
05/11/00

Well, Cap'n, that was a short six months! But, I suppose any forum is a good one from the perspective of a blowhard. Could you say cockroaches with just a little more vitrol please? It highlights the sentientist prejudice of your narrow set of beliefs.  Can't help but notice, in passing, that you belittle the "pathetic little whaling community" out of one side of your prodigous mouth, and yammer about the "huge global whaling conspiracy" from the other. With your mouth thus fully occupied in the task of contradicting itself, one must deduce that you must for the most part rely on talking out of your ass. I think your posts to this guestbook confirm this suspicion. See you in another "six months" (read: tomorrow).

Captain Paul Watson
Paulwatson@earthlink.net
05/11/00

It is gratifying to see that Mr. Miller recognizes himself for the repulsive little cockroach that he is. I hope he continues to be a successful cockroach organizer and has many happy cockroach meetings with other cockroaches to discuss to the point of boredom - all those trivial little cockroach problems that annoy him so much. Just as cockroaches scatter when exposed to light, Arthur and his minions scatter in the face of biocentric values and flutter their antennae in their quest to advance anthropocentic trivialities at the expense of the natural world. But even dung ball collectors have a place in the eco-system and Arthur has his - even if only as a source of amusement for the readers of this "esteemed" guestbook, There are few outside of the pathetic little whaling community that could possibly take him seriously. 

Jerry Ellison
carnivoresunited.webjump.com
05/11/00

It's interesting that most of the shrill "protestors" here want to remain annonymous or shall we say "hooded?"

It's also interesting that those claiming to love and respect these creatures don't wish to emulate them by hunting and eating fish. Why not be more like them?

What about recent scientific discoveries that cetaceous life isn't this strange Disney cartoon style pacifist--- that they bully and attack other marine life forms?

In other words, what about the real world? That animals including man, hunt and eat other animals since the dawn of history.

And still, we hear nothing other than a select group of rich PC whites attacking non-whites for their lifestyles which have had far more connection with the real natural world.